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Author Topic: The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim  (Read 1558342 times)

The Merchant Of Menace

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #2010 on: November 21, 2011, 06:00:58 am »

Oh, I edited my post to reply to ya, by the way.
They are pretty tough yeah, but if they weren't, they'd drop like flies the second a dragon decided to attack the town.
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Microcline

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Sk[quote author=Domenique link=topic=91172.msg27759yrim
« Reply #2011 on: November 21, 2011, 06:08:54 am »

There is so much wrong with this post I barely know where to begin.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also, guards are ludicrously powerful. Dude. They're guards. City guards. Not soldiers. Think medieval police or something.
Yet somehow they're all superhumans descended from gods, who can kill the shit out of anything. ::) Thought Bethesda had learnt from Oblivion, but no, they're even worse...

Man, soldiers shouldn't be that tough. They're farmers with a sharp tool in their hands and hardly any training on how to use it. Well, they should be, I mean. Not goddamn warriors.
I always figured that soldiers should be some of the toughest enemies you face in games.  Legionnaires should have high-quality equipment and ability that matches spending all day grinding combat skills.  They shouldn't be on the same tier as someone with CHIM, but they should be far tougher than most bandits and wildlife.  I haven't fought many of them though, so I don't know how they are in Skyrim.
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Domenique

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #2012 on: November 21, 2011, 06:11:51 am »

Oh, I edited my post to reply to ya, by the way.
They are pretty tough yeah, but if they weren't, they'd drop like flies the second a dragon decided to attack the town.

Fine by me as longs as they would respawn, since why the hell do they need you if they can handle them with no loses?
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #2013 on: November 21, 2011, 06:31:30 am »

that's it, I hate too the feeling that I'm a random useless goon.

however, I was thinking about leveled stuff more in general terms and I think it's the necessary evil of having the game so open ended.

You can be at the end of the main quest at level 20 as at level 50, and the game has to accomodate that somewhat, while in 'one way tunnel' rpg you are always in the level bracket that the developer set you to have at every point in the game, so enemies cold be handcrafted to whatever the developer feel right for your level.

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Glowcat

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #2014 on: November 21, 2011, 06:39:44 am »

You can be at the end of the main quest at level 20 as at level 50, and the game has to accomodate that somewhat, while in 'one way tunnel' rpg you are always in the level bracket that the developer set you to have at every point in the game, so enemies cold be handcrafted to whatever the developer feel right for your level.

Character Level != Combat Power

The developers can only assume what level of ability the player will be at, and then scale enemy power levels to that. Even if we were to assume players leveled entirely in combat skills and did so uniformly so as to be a match for scaling enemies, at that point I'd have to wonder why one has levels at all.
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #2015 on: November 21, 2011, 06:48:21 am »

Even if we were to assume players leveled entirely in combat skills and did so uniformly so as to be a match for scaling enemies, at that point I'd have to wonder why one has levels at all.

because otherwise you would be able to kill the final boss from day one. as far as I can tell, this time enemies scales upward and not downward like it was in oblivion (where you killed daedra lord from day one).

it also create a convenient and understood way of specializing your character in one area, creating the false illusion of replay value in the form of different characters build.

Just cause is the game that resembles more this series without having levels. (It has, in the form of equipement tiers)
This also means you can only scale situations so much before creating an unbeatable mission and this limits what you can ultimately thrown at the player.

I guess it will cost a ton more in term of development resources and storywriting to produce a game that's balanced and enjoyable without too much scaling or without levels altogether.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #2016 on: November 21, 2011, 07:08:33 am »

Hmm... running into some limitations in the writing, it seems.  I did the two quests necessary to join the thieves' guild, only because I really wanted to know what those 'unusual gems' are.  Now that I've done that, I've been talking to people, looking for some quest option to eradicate them.  Looks like I'll just be going ahead without one.  We'll see how the game world reacts.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

irbis

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #2017 on: November 21, 2011, 07:25:21 am »

hey anybody lives in Honeydew (or somethig) house in Riften?
I have some troubles buying it. i did the Skooma traders quest, i did quest for the Jarl's wizard of retriving her items. now what? i still dont have an option to buy the house from the Jarl's assistance.
what more quests i have to complate in order to be able to buy the house? help? :(
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shadenight123

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #2018 on: November 21, 2011, 07:31:04 am »

so, reinstalled game.
gave the default of high.
happy.
played with no qualms at circa 20-30 fps, with some higher spikes after immediately killing things. (yeah, strange eh? but as soon as i finish a fight with wolves, draugr or stuff i get a little bit faster)
seems the problem came from "tweaking" the friggin ini.
now that it's fixed, everything is fine-o.
sort of, i'm still in riverwood, so until i reach, say, whiterun, i won't be able to see if the "lag depending on area" is fixed or not.

hey anybody lives in Honeydew (or somethig) house in Riften?
I have some troubles buying it. i did the Skooma traders quest, i did quest for the Jarl's wizard of retriving her items. now what? i still dont have an option to buy the house from the Jarl's assistance.
what more quests i have to complate in order to be able to buy the house? help? :(

when you become a thane usually you get to buy houses.
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“Well,” he said. “We’re in the Forgotten hunting grounds I take it. Your screams just woke them up early. Congratulations, Lyara.”
“Do something!” she whispered, trying to keep her sight on all of them at once.
Basileus clapped his hands once. The Forgotten took a step forward, attracted by the sound.
“There, I did something. I clapped. I like clapping,” he said. -The Investigator And The Case Of The Missing Brain.

irbis

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #2019 on: November 21, 2011, 07:54:19 am »

thats rather obvious - but go ahead and become a thane in Riften. and tell me how you did it. :P
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Nega

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #2020 on: November 21, 2011, 07:54:54 am »

hey anybody lives in Honeydew (or somethig) house in Riften?
I have some troubles buying it. i did the Skooma traders quest, i did quest for the Jarl's wizard of retriving her items. now what? i still dont have an option to buy the house from the Jarl's assistance.
what more quests i have to complate in order to be able to buy the house? help? :(
The house is called Breezehome, and I don't really know when you're able to buy it, but I know it costs 5 thousand septims.
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shadenight123

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #2021 on: November 21, 2011, 07:59:44 am »

hey anybody lives in Honeydew (or somethig) house in Riften?
I have some troubles buying it. i did the Skooma traders quest, i did quest for the Jarl's wizard of retriving her items. now what? i still dont have an option to buy the house from the Jarl's assistance.
what more quests i have to complate in order to be able to buy the house? help? :(
The house is called Breezehome, and I don't really know when you're able to buy it, but I know it costs 5 thousand septims.

breezehome is whiterun.
he refers to the one in riften.
there is one for every major hold...in riften i didn't check, i'll have a look later.
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“Well,” he said. “We’re in the Forgotten hunting grounds I take it. Your screams just woke them up early. Congratulations, Lyara.”
“Do something!” she whispered, trying to keep her sight on all of them at once.
Basileus clapped his hands once. The Forgotten took a step forward, attracted by the sound.
“There, I did something. I clapped. I like clapping,” he said. -The Investigator And The Case Of The Missing Brain.

Microcline

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #2022 on: November 21, 2011, 08:00:54 am »

You can be at the end of the main quest at level 20 as at level 50, and the game has to accomodate that somewhat, while in 'one way tunnel' rpg you are always in the level bracket that the developer set you to have at every point in the game, so enemies cold be handcrafted to whatever the developer feel right for your level.

Character Level != Combat Power

The developers can only assume what level of ability the player will be at, and then scale enemy power levels to that. Even if we were to assume players leveled entirely in combat skills and did so uniformly so as to be a match for scaling enemies, at that point I'd have to wonder why one has levels at all.
I don't know why they didn't just go back to distributing difficulty by geography.  In Morrowind, the enemies generally got tougher as one approached Red Mountain.  This approach removes the need for extensive level scaling.  There's no need to set up the leveling treadmill because the player can choose an appropriate difficulty by choosing where to adventure.  One would think that offering this kind of choice would be a no-brainer for an open world game.  With the approach used in Oblivion and Skyrim, the dungeons get a samey feel from always having the same loot and enemies.  There's no way to go on a daring raid into a high-level area and snag a few pieces of valuable equipment.

Also, has anyone seen any daedric creatures other than the dremora lords in Azura's Star?  I know Oblivion ran them into the ground but a clannfear or two would really break the monotony of all these draugr.
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Glowcat

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #2023 on: November 21, 2011, 08:04:32 am »

Even if we were to assume players leveled entirely in combat skills and did so uniformly so as to be a match for scaling enemies, at that point I'd have to wonder why one has levels at all.

because otherwise you would be able to kill the final boss from day one. as far as I can tell, this time enemies scales upward and not downward like it was in oblivion (where you killed daedra lord from day one).

Preventing the player from killing the main boss immediately can be done with other methods. It's already not possible to do so without completing the main quest line. When levels are reduced to a bottleneck measure it loses much of what stat raising represents. The player experience of leveling, i.e. seeing a clear progression of character ability, is destroyed and as Bethesda has proven with the last two Elder Scrolls games the scaling leads to a crap ton of balance issues as not all skills/enemies rise equally. Upwards scaling (as compared to constant power) removes the experience of progression by making enemies rise up to match the player, which only reduces the disparity that should be felt between them and any built-up antagonist. Perhaps Mannimarco in Oblivion was one of the worst cases here. The actual effect on the user experience is that it shatters the illusion of disbelief necessary for immersion into a RPG world and makes the artificiality as a game aggravatingly perceptible, in the same manner a game bug knocks the user's perception back into reality instead of keeping them enthralled by the experience.

If Bethesda wants to keep the player constantly challenged there are better ways to accomplish it. Ways divorced from enemies capable of soaking a flurry of blows with minor wounds. Ways which allow the player some actual freedom in how to approach character development instead of requiring the player to keep on the combat paths enough that their character isn't rendered useless in those situations. Of course Bethesda probably shy away from these methods since it would require them to almost completely reconstruct combat into something approaching Mount and Blade, or other games where death is one poorly placed block away, instead of continuing to use something close to the current system which is the one their market is most comfortable with.

Coincidentally, one of the reasons I still enjoy my mage is because of how fragile she is. More than once I've died due to a simple misstep, and most enemies I've encountered so far aren't too bad when it comes to the number of double Thunderbolts they take before going down. Bethesda's AI isn't designed well enough to deal with her lock down ability but some sneaky/lucky enemies manage to have their day once in a while.

hey anybody lives in Honeydew (or somethig) house in Riften?
I have some troubles buying it. i did the Skooma traders quest, i did quest for the Jarl's wizard of retriving her items. now what? i still dont have an option to buy the house from the Jarl's assistance.
what more quests i have to complate in order to be able to buy the house? help? :(

I'm having the same problem with my Stormcloak aligned character. My Imperial on the other hand is able to buy due to conquering the city. Funny how that works.
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I'm going to steamroll this house.

Criptfeind

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Re: Discussion on TES V: Skyrim
« Reply #2024 on: November 21, 2011, 08:08:03 am »

Mount and Blade, or other games where death is one poorly placed block away

I got to say, combat seems much more deadly (for the player at least. Mooks it seems about the same for) then it was in Mount and Blade.
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