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[WillowLuman]

Anyone else remember being blown away by Oblivion's graphics, then you played Skyrim, then you saw a screenshot from Oblivion and screamed "Oh God, the blurry, blurry faces, the horror, the horror!"?

[scriver]

What I'm objecting to is extrapolating the entire puzzle from a single piece

Which nobody has done. Sometimes, however you know the pieces so well that you cab tell where a single piece fits into the puzzle just Nu looking at that piece. That's called getting acquaintanced with the setting and the lore.

[/quote] or insisting there's some weird time paradox that makes each and every story anyone has ever spoken or written down literally true[/quote]

Which only happened in the Warp in the West, due to fucking around with god-stuff.

[/quote] or assuming that every aspect of said puzzle piece fits with all the others and is thus true. [/quote]

That's funny, because the lore pieces that isn't in game is a whole lot more relevant to the puzzle than some which we can actually find ingame. Because if they weren't relevant, they wouldn't have been shown to us.


[/quote] It wouldn't be a puzzle if you didn't have to figure out what's just cultural fluff and what correlates with what other cultures hold, and with reality. The presence of the 9 divines in some form throughout almost every belief system supports their existence, but even without in-game confessions from Vivec we can infer that much said about him by the Temple is apocryphal. [/quote]

How can we infer that, specifically?

[forsaken1111]

Anyone else remember being blown away by Oblivion's graphics, then you played Skyrim, then you saw a screenshot from Oblivion and screamed "Oh God, the blurry, blurry faces, the horror, the horror!"?

Yeah, I had almost that exact reaction. Though oddly I never had it when going from morrowind to oblivion. I always knew morrowind was buttugly but played it anyway because daggerfall/elder scrolls.

[Soadreqm]

Yes, how Sheogorath is not literally a skooma cat but from Kajhiit mythology alone you can at least infer that there is an entity spreading insanity around. IRL, there's not some guy hucking thunderbolts at people he doesn't like but you know that lightning does strike. What I'm objecting to is extrapolating the entire puzzle from a single piece, or insisting there's some weird time paradox that makes each and every story anyone has ever spoken or written down literally true, or assuming that every aspect of said puzzle piece fits with all the others and is thus true.

It wouldn't be a puzzle if you didn't have to figure out what's just cultural fluff and what correlates with what other cultures hold, and with reality. The presence of the 9 divines in some form throughout almost every belief system supports their existence, but even without in-game confessions from Vivec we can infer that much said about him by the Temple is apocryphal.

What? Are you questioning the "time paradox makes all the stories happen at the same time" interpretation of Daggerfall's ending? I think that explains things much better than the alternative "the Divines did it" explanation. Do you have some other theory?

As for Vivec, which things said by the temple, and what do you mean by "apocryphal"? Some parts of Vivec lore present in Morrowind are explicitly referred to as going against the temple doctrine, although the game uses the word "apographa" instead. The Dissident Priest book "Progress of Truth" lists the most important theological disagreements. These, of course, are not "things said by the temple", but the very opposite.

[WillowLuman]

Apocryphal: v. Of questionable authenticity

I'm not objecting to daggerfall's ending, which is explicitly stated, I'm objecting to things like CHIM, which is mentioned exactly ONCE in what's basically a propaganda book for a chimer mage, yet some people take it as the grand unifying theory explaining everything in the lore. We can infer that much of the history and creation myths given by the Tribunal Temple are exaggerated or baloney because pretty much everyone else on Tamriel agrees that they are. We can infer that the "All-maker" didn't create werewolves to punish unworthy Skaal because everything else points to them being made by Hircine.

Some things with scarce a mention to be found in the games makes sense, like the whole 7 towers thing, while others, like certain forum RP's with the developers, don't.

[Euld]

Guys, it's a video game, especially a video game that seems pretty incapable of keeping its own stories straight   Sheesh this thread is starting to sound like a Christian Bible study.

[Putnam]

Apocryphal: v. Of questionable authenticity

I'm not objecting to daggerfall's ending, which is explicitly stated, I'm objecting to things like CHIM, which is mentioned exactly ONCE in what's basically a propaganda book for a chimer mage, yet some people take it as the grand unifying theory explaining everything in the lore. We can infer that much of the history and creation myths given by the Tribunal Temple are exaggerated or baloney because pretty much everyone else on Tamriel agrees that they are. We can infer that the "All-maker" didn't create werewolves to punish unworthy Skaal because everything else points to them being made by Hircine.

Some things with scarce a mention to be found in the games makes sense, like the whole 7 towers thing, while others, like certain forum RP's with the developers, don't.

CHIM is also suggested to be how Tiber Septim turned Cyrodiil from a jungle into a generic fantasyland in the Many-Headed Talos, which is mentioned in Skyrim.

[WillowLuman]

Again, it's open to interpretation

1)Where does it say CHIM (i.e. that he did it by breaking the fourth wall)?

2)How do we know it wasn't with immensely powerful thu'um or Shezzar powers?

3)How do we know he actually did this, and didn't just take credit for it?

[Ibid Straydrink]

Guys, it's a video game, especially a video game that seems pretty incapable of keeping its own stories straight   Sheesh this thread is starting to sound like a Christian Bible study.

That's part of the cultural-political-philosophical depth of TES (well, ok, Morrowind and to a lesser extent Skyrim) that made it so enjoyable for me. Yes, it's just a game with plenty of inconsistencies and sophomoric entries in lore, but nonetheless, it's as fun to piece together and conjecture as it is to play.

[WillowLuman]

The nebulousness and trying to pick apart the mystery is, after all, part of the fun. You know you've generated a richly deep lore when people spend lengths arguing about it's points outside the main media of the series.

[Neyvn]

Spent around 5hrs coaching someone on how to mod Skyrim the otherday. Was an interesting experiance. They had never modded Skyrim before so I thought I would start simple.
Steam Workshop Mods that change the atmosphere and graphic styles such as the Static Mesh Mods and things such as the Detailed Cities/Faces.
I then got them to use Nexus Mod Manager to download SkyRe. So far, they are amazed with the thing...
THOUGH, They forgot to tell me that their previous statement of their partner spoiling them and getting all the DLC didn't actually include Dragonborn DLC so therefore we had to spend another hour more then first thought trying to explain how to find the conflicting mod that forces the CTD and how to fix it...

Still. Seems like they are enjoying Skyrim in a new way now...
Me, I decided to play along side them with the same mods...
After how I used to mod up Skyrim. Everything is just so simple. I don't know why but everything seems to squish very quickly, Cave Bear in the starting dungeon? ONE HIT? WHAT? A Crit hit and the thing went down...

[MaximumZero]

A new chapter of Dovahbear unfolds.

Maaaan, I want to rocket jump with Fus Ro Dah!

[Soadreqm]

Guys, it's a video game, especially a video game that seems pretty incapable of keeping its own stories straight   Sheesh this thread is starting to sound like a Christian Bible study.

Shut your whore mouth.

Apocryphal: v. Of questionable authenticity

I'm not objecting to daggerfall's ending, which is explicitly stated, I'm objecting to things like CHIM, which is mentioned exactly ONCE in what's basically a propaganda book for a chimer mage, yet some people take it as the grand unifying theory explaining everything in the lore. We can infer that much of the history and creation myths given by the Tribunal Temple are exaggerated or baloney because pretty much everyone else on Tamriel agrees that they are. We can infer that the "All-maker" didn't create werewolves to punish unworthy Skaal because everything else points to them being made by Hircine.

Some things with scarce a mention to be found in the games makes sense, like the whole 7 towers thing, while others, like certain forum RP's with the developers, don't.

I was thinking of Apocryphal: Of or belonging to the Apocrypha, meaning biblical or related writings not forming part of the accepted canon of Scripture.

The thing about CHIM is that Vivec seems to have a few bits of information that shouldn't even exist inside the setting. How does he know about obscure graphical glitches of TES: Redguard? Are graphical glitches canon? Why does he keep making these weird poetic metaphors about aspects of the game like save states and chugging potions in the inventory screen while the game is paused? Saying that Vivec possesses mysterious fourth wall powers explains a lot of things. Can you provide an alternate theory?

Some people assume that Vivec never lies in his Sermons, on account of him claiming at one point to have been using his "water face", an effect or power that he claims renders him incapable of lying. I think there might be a loophole in this. Still, in order to claim to have mysterious fourth wall powers, you first need to know that a fourth wall exists, which requires mysterious fourth wall powers.

Again, it's open to interpretation

1)Where does it say CHIM (i.e. that he did it by breaking the fourth wall)?

2)How do we know it wasn't with immensely powerful thu'um or Shezzar powers?

3)How do we know he actually did this, and didn't just take credit for it?

1) Mythic Dawn Commentaries, book 3. (Hardly a reputable source, I admit.) Tiber Septim's words "I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine" also suggest this.

2) I'd argue that it can't be thu'um because thu'um is insufficiently powerful. Changing a whole biome is a whole different order of magnitude from anything the Voice has been documented to do. I suppose there are other ways, though. This was around the time when he conquered Alinor with Numidium.

3) This, too, is a good point. Actually, it could have been just natural climate change. :/

[WillowLuman]

"I breathe now, in royalty" sounds very Thu'um to me. Thu'um is literally words becoming reality. We don't get to see much in game, but there are implications that The Voice can do immense things, like revert an entire nation to children or change the seasons.

[forsaken1111]

For dragons, even the act of speaking can call things into being so if they put effort into a specific effect there may be no limits to what a skilled thu'um wielder could do.