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[Eric Blank]

Terror and fear, and unfortunately it does have military value. To Medeival barbarians during sieges. Yes, the intention is to provoke panic and hope you surrender. It's also probably retaliation for striking inside Russian borders; you stand up to us at all, we'll slaughter your civilian population. Very much Genghis Khan terror strategy.

[martinuzz]

Or what we ourselves did to Dresden and Japanese towns and villages

[Great Order]

Thing is terror only works if the civilian population will be cowed. If not what you do is just create a civilian population that's pissed off and more supportive of the war.

There's also the other issue of if you plan to annex the nation you're just creating a metric shitload of terrorists within your borders.

[martinuzz]

Ukrainians in the US received an email from the government saying that they need to leave the country within 7 days. Not much later, those that didn't die of a heart attack received another email from the government, saying the previous mail was a mistake and can be disregarded.

EDIT: in some good news, Ukraine has struck Russia's only factory that produces glass fibre. Wire controlled drones will become harder to make.

[Strongpoint]

Terror and fear, and unfortunately it does have military value. To Medeival barbarians during sieges. Yes, the intention is to provoke panic and hope you surrender. It's also probably retaliation for striking inside Russian borders; you stand up to us at all, we'll slaughter your civilian population. Very much Genghis Khan terror strategy.

No....

Yes, if you have the means to devastate a city and kill a significant number of people, it may have some effect in accelerating surrender.

But we are talking about a sporadic random terror strike that kills dozens. Just like blowing up a schoolbus with a suicide bomber won't make any country surrender, neither will this.

[anewaname]

It wouldn't be a surprise if the Russians consider targeting the families of soldiers equal to targeting soldiers. And the attack was against Zelensky's hometown, so it furthers the narrative of "your babies are dying because Zelensky won't submit".

[martinuzz]

I suspect personal friends or acquaintances of Zelensky might have been amongst the victims, when seeing how furious he is in his reaction to the US not blaming Russia for the attack.

We appreciate the statements of the embassies of Japan, the UK, Switzerland aand Germany. Sadly, the reaction of the US embassy is surprisingly disappointing. Such a strong country. Such a strong people. Yet such as weak response. They are afraid of even using the word 'Russian' when it is about a rocket that murdered children

I hope this doesn't hurt Trump's ego in a way that he ends all aid.

[heydude6]

I hope this doesn't hurt Trump's ego in a way that he ends all aid.

He kind of already did though, no? I was under the impression that we’ve only been getting help from Europe and Canada after Trump axed USAID.

[Strongpoint]

I hope this doesn't hurt Trump's ego in a way that he ends all aid.

He kind of already did though, no? I was under the impression that we’ve only been getting help from Europe and Canada after Trump axed USAID.

Ukraine still gets American military aid. There was a brief pause in that when Zelensky "didn't say thank you" but it was resumed after we started playing the "talks for a ceasefire" game. Something we should do until aid from Biden's era runs out because I don't think Trump administration will go for a new package no matter what. I am not even sure that we will be allowed to buy American weapons at market price.

[EuchreJack]

Poor Ukraine, their President Zelensky took the bait and gave US President Trump the excuse he needed to cut aid to Ukraine.

It might have been the purpose behind the attack. Putin doesn't know shit about running a war, but he sees himself as an ace at psyops.

Zelensky needs to go back to that "dispassionate lawyer" shtick.
Sometimes people have things you need, and you gotta listen to stupid shit to get what you want, even playing to their ego.
"Why yes Judge, that is absolutely correct, but you see..." rather than "That is the stupidest thing I ever heard, you racist bastard"

[anewaname]

What we have seen so far indicates that Trump was never going to approve new funding for Ukraine unless American popular support turned rabidly against him about it, and if Zelensky signs any deal with Trump it will be worse for Ukraine than not signing it, because signing it will support Russia and will not include weapons and ammo to continue the fight, and it would even financially benefit Trump and his allies instead of the USA.

Trump and Putin are reenacting 1939's Poland invasion, except Trump is trying to do it with contracts instead of invading.



I was watching some colorized movies from inside 1945's Germany as the Allied forces accepted the surrender of Germans and released people from work camps; there were huge lines of French who had been working the German farms, walking down the roads. Every time I hear someone mention "Nazi camps" I point out that there were only 6 death camps but thousands of forced-labor camps, and wouldn't it suck to have someone point a gun at you and say "pick up a shovel".

[martinuzz]

They cannot be compared. They served a completely different purpose.

[EuchreJack]

I had a buddy once explain to me that his grandparents were slaves of the Nazis and had to work the farms.
...I almost stupidly corrected him*, but quickly realized he was right.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

*In the US, most of our education about the Concentration Camp system refers to the victims of the Nazi's regime as "Prisoners" instead of "Slaves", hence "smart people" could easily be tricked if they are unable to figure out that those terms were synonyms under the Nazi regime. Especially in states that have outlawed mandatory prison labor.

[martinuzz]

You had forced labour, where workers from occupied territories were forced to go work in Germany's food and production industries. Some nationalities were treated better than others, but most got back home alive. A lot of dutch men forced to work in Germany described it as none too bad times. It was forced labour, but they were fed and treated well enough by their employers. Most were even paid (very low) wages.

Then you had the labour camps for jews, gays, political opponents, resistance fighters and other people deemed unworthy of life. Work was hard, food was scarce, diseases killed many who were too weakened. Their main purpose was still labour, not extermination. Slaves were fed more if the supply of slaves was low. Having all your workforce die is bad for productivity.

Then there were the extermination camps for jews, gays, gypsies, and of whomever more the nazis regarded extermination to be the main goal.
Most extermination camps had a labour department, why waste good muscle if you can waste it off by labour, right?
The infamous 2-way split in Auschwitz at the entrance is exemplary. Upon arrival by cattle wagons at the Auschwitz train platforms, people would stand in line, Mengele and his staff would look at them, decide if they were fit for labour, or could maybe be used in medical experiments. Those that were picked went to the left, to be de-liced with chemicals, shaven bald, and were allowed to work themselves to death. Or treated very precisely with scalpels to determine for veins in the body how long it takes a human to bleed to death from. Those that weren't picked went to the right, following a road straight from the station to the gas chamber entrances.
The labour department of extermination camps was pretty small compared to the genocide industry.
At it's peak efficiency, Auschwitz could gas 20 thousand jews per day. It could handle more, but train transport couldn't supply more.
Out of 1.3 million people sent to Auschwitz, 1.1 million were murdered. Most on the day they arrived.

[anewaname]

I agree with what you're saying about how there were different camps and how many people left the camp system healthy and decently fed. If the war and the regime didn't end, would they have left the camp system?

Have you looked at how the camp systems changed happened over time? The first 1933 camps were not about forced labor, it was just imprisonment for political opposition. As soon as it was established that people could be detained without trial, those camps filled up. The purpose of the camps was consolidation of power within Germany, and the complete destruction of the democratic attributes of the government. The camps evolved into something else over time, as they concentrated, filtered, and redistributed bodies for labor, from Germany and then from other countries, and also as they developed into a necessary source of labor for construction projects.

I am thinking of shifts in the Overton window that happen in society as camp systems are created... 1930's Germany and 1920's Russia, 2020's Russia, and 2020's USA. Germany probably never had more than 5-10% of its population in those camps if it had that much, and Russia's gulag system was likely the same. Currently about 0.5% of Ukraine's entire population has been evacuated/deported to Russia, but since they are mostly from occupied territories, it is probably close to 5-10% of just those regions.