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[Salvatore Monday]

It was a paraphrase from this game (but also from earlier ones):

I read a bit of Paranormal 27 where I make the astute insight that without hammers votes are shit posts until the deadline.

Do you see evidence of what AP thinks of votes, Sal?  Could you mark it?

Not specifically, but I believe from what I know of him that he would let his partner distance like that, especially since he immediately used it as an excuse to suspect me and shame other people for voting with me (hilariously). I'm not really trying to make too much of a case on him, though, because I don't want to tunnel and lose the opportunity to consider other options. Although I do have to point out that he sure did take my semi-joking accusations toward him d1 way too irrationally personally for a town player.

Anyway, Unvote, I float and wonder what comes next; and what does AP do without any vote pressure.  I'm now all scared and stressed about some self destructive quips Sal mentioned, which I'd initially taken as rooted in this game despite hints they were rooted in an earlier game.  Now I'm all sad and unhappy about earlier game mentions and far less curious here myself.

I'm not sure what you mean by this and I'd like for you to explain further. My comments about self-sacrificing are about this game, although I am of course referencing Toony's action in another.
To put it simply, it's about my role and whether or not it would be wise for me to accept certain death in order to give the rest of town another shot to solve today. If you were afraid it might mean something else... well I'd still like to know what you thought it meant but it almost certainly does not.

[Jim Groovester]

Some of it is also POE, as I don't see Imp, Jim or Toony as as Agent's ally. Some people are saying AnimePigeon. This is interesting as Agent first gathered heat by putting the third vote on Pigeon. Would Agent do that to his only ally?

AnimePigeon hadn't posted yet by then. I can talk myself into believing that it's a gentle, low risk distancing attempt, but there are also several other perfectly plausible explanations I can talk myself into believing that don't have AP and Agent T teamed up.

Would Agentt vote AP, if say AP was silent in the thread, and talkative in mafchat.  I feel strongly I see clear evidence Agentt wasn't often speaking as himself, he had a posting partner privately.  Definitely if AP recommended it.  I think Agentt would rather do what was advised than his own independent ideas, unless he really liked his idea(s).  I don't think AP would recommend 'vote me, I'll still be silent for a while too'.

I have no evidence to assert this but I tend to believe that if players have a private chat their first posts in the chat and the first post in the main thread aren't too far apart from each other. I wouldn't expect a scum player to be furiously typing in mafia chat while also ignoring the main thread for more than 24 hours.

Huh.  Where's that quote from.

I'm quoting myself from Paranormal 27.

That's okay, without hammers votes are shitposts until the deadline anyway.

[Jim Groovester]

Some of it is also POE, as I don't see Imp, Jim or Toony as as Agent's ally. Some people are saying AnimePigeon. This is interesting as Agent first gathered heat by putting the third vote on Pigeon. Would Agent do that to his only ally?

AnimePigeon hadn't posted yet by then. I can talk myself into believing that it's a gentle, low risk distancing attempt, but there are also several other perfectly plausible explanations I can talk myself into believing that don't have AP and Agent T teamed up.

I guess the point I'm making is that at the time Agentt cast his vote, it was far from being fatal for AnimePigeon, and scum applying (usually mild) pressure on their partners when it's inconsequential is not an uncommon scum pattern, and interacting with town but especially other mafia in believable ways is a difficult skill that Agentt has likely not mastered yet.

[Imp]

It was a paraphrase from this game (but also from earlier ones):

I read a bit of Paranormal 27 where I make the astute insight that without hammers votes are shit posts until the deadline.

But that's Jim's thinking.  Do we think AP thinks like Jim, or that most people do?

Do you see evidence of what AP thinks of votes, Sal?  Could you mark it?

Not specifically, but I believe from what I know of him that he would let his partner distance like that, especially since he immediately used it as an excuse to suspect me and shame other people for voting with me (hilariously). I'm not really trying to make too much of a case on him, though, because I don't want to tunnel and lose the opportunity to consider other options. Although I do have to point out that he sure did take my semi-joking accusations toward him d1 way too irrationally personally for a town player.

Anyway, Unvote, I float and wonder what comes next; and what does AP do without any vote pressure.  I'm now all scared and stressed about some self destructive quips Sal mentioned, which I'd initially taken as rooted in this game despite hints they were rooted in an earlier game.  Now I'm all sad and unhappy about earlier game mentions and far less curious here myself.

I'm not sure what you mean by this and I'd like for you to explain further. My comments about self-sacrificing are about this game, although I am of course referencing Toony's action in another.
To put it simply, it's about my role and whether or not it would be wise for me to accept certain death in order to give the rest of town another shot to solve today. If you were afraid it might mean something else... well I'd still like to know what you thought it meant but it almost certainly does not.

Cool.  We can discuss after game and elsewhere (rotate and reflect matrix yay!).  I am not concerned about it meaning inside this game... okay.  Acceptable and coded in levels of distasteful, and just fine to exist in the same world as me.

Jim and Sal - when I ask where that quote's from - I don't mean what JIM is quoting, that's simple and straightforward, and normalish Jim attitude and presentation.

But Sal attributes it to AP.  Which is like expecting glass to behave like steel.  I want to know where AP said that, or implied that, because I'm not so sure that AP thinks that votes early mean the same shitpostness

Some of it is also POE, as I don't see Imp, Jim or Toony as as Agent's ally. Some people are saying AnimePigeon. This is interesting as Agent first gathered heat by putting the third vote on Pigeon. Would Agent do that to his only ally?

Anime would certainly tell him to do it even if he didn't think of it himself.

"Every vote before deadline is a shitpost."

See see see see?

This isn't about Jim.  It's about Anime - "Anime would certainly tell him to do it"

Wait.  Would Anime?  Would Anime even think to tell him to do that?  Jim sure would.

I'm wondering why I'm following scenttrail that goes from 'makes sense, makes sense, see each footprint' to 'whoah.  We just rotated, or someone picked up the scent marker and carried it over to start laying trail along a totally different path, that's not fox-step one after another.  Something else happened.

Or I'm confused, how does Anime present that Anime thinks that way?

[notquitethere]

As there's only two main plausible suspects, I suppose I don't really mind which order we try them in, given we have a tracker + whatever other undeclared town roles which can be brought to bear on the other suspect if we get it wrong.

[Salvatore Monday]

But that's Jim's thinking.  Do we think AP thinks like Jim, or that most people do?
[...]
But Sal attributes it to AP.  Which is like expecting glass to behave like steel.  I want to know where AP said that, or implied that, because I'm not so sure that AP thinks that votes early mean the same shitpostness
[...]
See see see see?

This isn't about Jim.  It's about Anime - "Anime would certainly tell him to do it"

Wait.  Would Anime?  Would Anime even think to tell him to do that?  Jim sure would.

I'm wondering why I'm following scenttrail that goes from 'makes sense, makes sense, see each footprint' to 'whoah.  We just rotated, or someone picked up the scent marker and carried it over to start laying trail along a totally different path, that's not fox-step one after another.  Something else happened.

Or I'm confused, how does Anime present that Anime thinks that way?

Oh, okay, I think you misunderstood my intent. I think the statement is more or less correct - votes with no consequence are cheap and meaningless. It's why I usually don't change my vote much, unless I want my vote to be cheap and meaningless, which sometimes happens.

I wasn't attributing the quote to Anime - I was saying it myself. I don't know whether Anime himself would say it or not, but I definitely think he could pick up on the even lower stakes for cheap distancing than usual. My argument isn't even that he would or did, really, just that I'm not ruling it out just because of that one measly vote that didn't stick. I also particularly feel like Agentt would be likely to distance like that, but I can't really back that up with any experience.

[Salvatore Monday]

My argument isn't even that he would or did

(I do still stand by saying that he would, but that's just from my personal impression of him. It's not something I currently feel absolutely necessary to commit to.)

[ToonyMan]

AnimePigeon

I don't want Sal (or anybody for that matter) to have to go through the suffering of considering an hero.

[ToonyMan]

As there's only two main plausible suspects, I suppose I don't really mind which order we try them in, given we have a tracker + whatever other undeclared town roles which can be brought to bear on the other suspect if we get it wrong.

It's difficult to imagine scenarios where the solo dopp wins unless Magma is an alien, however it's true that we shouldn't be complacent.

[AnimePigeon]

Hey All - Im still here, I've been reading up recently on what I've missed a little, but needed time away from the thread, I will likely be infrequently in the thread still for the next 12 hrs or so - because got a few things going on, but I will be posting when able. (This post has taken quite a bit of energy out of me, along with Hospital/GP Appointments today - so whilst I will attempt to post some more in the next hour or so, I just wanted to give warning incase I'm not around)

*Abbreviated Below Quote from Imp to try and enable me to be succinct & clear*

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Is that your issue?  If so, it's not offensive to me and I get why you reasonably can ask me not to do that, but where did your out of the wild yonder question come from?

I use the term 'I don't care'  About what you claim.  I'm not trying to get you to say, for example, "I'm a garbage compactor".  I'm okay with not discussing your claim at all for now, and focusing on other things.  It's 100% on you if you discuss whatever about your claim, for at least this D2.  If we're both alive later in the game I likely do revisit it with quite a few queries.  I see a lot to unpack there, but hey, you're the one who said it.  Could even be townie lies, I dunno, 'don't care'.

That has nothing to do about what I think about if you care or not, presumably about this game.

[spoiler]Which is what you go into:

"I'm in the game, I'm posting, ofcourse I care. This isn't an attack against you, I know you have stuff going on irl & you've mentioned it yourself, just try not to question my interest or care in the game."

Okay.  Fine.  Except I haven't.

Did you misunderstand me?  If so, where or how?

Because right now that looks like a hognose snake; nobody even noticed if it was there or not, and now it's doing this giant display of 'oh, I am so dead' in ways dead things never do.

Why'd you think I was saying you don't care about being here, posting or not, whatever?

Also, sorry for your feelings about that.  I don't claim responsibility for them unless someone can help me see where I messed up and presented that - but I am sorry you are hurting or whatever.

My issues with your claim, which I won't go into, don't actually have anything to do with Jim.  But that's for later than D2.

I'm not sure, if I misunderstood you, or if what you typed didn't come out, as it originally sounded when you typed it.

I want to avoid any unnecessary discussion that could cause any issues - but I will attempt to explain what bothered me;

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[spoiler]

Kind of confused about the rationale behind the dopp kill but not going to complain that the dopps are helping me solve the game.

I'm a Sneak. I was roommates with Magma Mater during N1 (he didn't know). Magma Mater didn't leave his house, so he is not a doppelganger.

My D1 game suspects have all been solved, so now I have to work through Imp, ToonyMan, notquitethere, Salvatore Monday, and AnimePigeon.

I visited Jim with my Role Last Night

Do you feel like you've told us a lot about your role with that, or not?

That's very much upto how others perceive this information from me.

I can't see any reason why I should need to reveal my role, or need to elaborate further than I have realistically.

I can't confirm whether Jim is Good/Evil, but I thought my action was best used on Jim.

There's a weird thing about targeting Jim, if Jim's honest.

I wonder if you got results on Jim.  Not my problem, but interesting about you, or not.  Hard to tell.  I dunno if you know what you're claiming, or care.  Or if you know how to read your results and can help us understand more about Jim's likely honesty.

I mean, it's interesting, your claim vs his.

I dunno if you know what you're claiming, or care. - This line bothered me mainly, because the wording suggests to me atleast, you had doubt about whether I understood or cared what I was claiming. Your tone didn't come across very well, which is often key weakness of typed/online communication without facial indications you would usually have in person.

There was something else that bothered me, but I would rather discuss that after the game.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Kind of confused about the rationale behind the dopp kill but not going to complain that the dopps are helping me solve the game.

I'm a Sneak. I was roommates with Magma Mater during N1 (he didn't know). Magma Mater didn't leave his house, so he is not a doppelganger.

My D1 game suspects have all been solved, so now I have to work through Imp, ToonyMan, notquitethere, Salvatore Monday, and AnimePigeon.

I visited Jim with my Role Last Night

Do you feel like you've told us a lot about your role with that, or not?

That's very much upto how others perceive this information from me.

I can't see any reason why I should need to reveal my role, or need to elaborate further than I have realistically.

I can't confirm whether Jim is Good/Evil, but I thought my action was best used on Jim.

There's a weird thing about targeting Jim, if Jim's honest.

I wonder if you got results on Jim.  Not my problem, but interesting about you, or not.  Hard to tell.  I dunno if you know what you're claiming, or care.  Or if you know how to read your results and can help us understand more about Jim's likely honesty.

I mean, it's interesting, your claim vs his.

I don't think you intended, but please try not to bring into the game whether you think
I care or don't care... I'm in the game, I'm posting, ofcourse I care. This isn't an attack against you, I know you have stuff going on irl & you've mentioned it yourself, just try not to question my interest or care in the game.

This is a 72 Hr Day Game.

Jim's Information wasn't even specifically about me, he claimed he was Roommates with Magma & that Magma didn't visit anyone. (Atleast that's my understanding)

Jim that used that to try and reduce his POE from Magma & Me, to just me.

My action has 0 impact on Jim's result.

How can I help Jim having a POE of just 2 people, given that would suggest if there is 1 Doppelgänger & 1 Evil, that he would need a 100% Accuracy on both in his POE.

AnimePigeon

Please don't bring into the game what I think is a huge offense to me.

Beyond that, you claim to have targeted a sneak.

That means, depending on your role, you got a few possible outcomes.

But you also don't claim to have sussed Jim.

That extremely narrows down your role, as well as the bifurcated path.

I flat out don't believe you, don't like how you're posting or acting either.

You MAY be town.  I don't particularly think so.

And your sideways slippy posting makes more sense for dop trying to be vague than town particularly with that insult atop it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hey, AP.  Now that I'm done being

I mean, for the moment.  Fury's coming back, hopefully not directed at you.

I'm mad there because I think you're literally telling me not to post what I think.

"I don't think you intended, but please try not to bring into the game whether you think"  That's rather broken grammar.  I think you're insulting me really deeply.  But maybe I just can't parse your phrasing.

Maybe your linebreak is an accident.

Regarding :- I care or don't care... I'm in the game, I'm posting, ofcourse I care. This isn't an attack against you, I know you have stuff going on irl & you've mentioned it yourself, just try not to question my interest or care in the game.

&

How can I help Jim having a POE of just 2 people, given that would suggest if there is 1 Doppelgänger & 1 Evil, that he would need a 100% Accuracy on both in his POE.

I'm sorry that I offended you, as that was not my intention - I just wanted to clearly communicate that I didn't appreciate my care/interest in the game being brought into question.

The Linebreak was totally accident, when I'm typing on mobile, it's hard to tell when a line is full, so if my big finger mis-hit "return" creating a Linebreak, it's hard for me to notice, as it usually just looks & reads the same for me.

I don't fully understand how I insulted you, but again that would be better discussed after the game.

My comment on Jim's POE, wasn't really a question at all for you or anyone, it was more to try and emphasise that I can't control what others report or say. Additionally, I didn't claim any particular result & I haven't outright denied the possibility of Doppelgänger Jim.

Happy to talk after the game to try and clear anything up (with or without a intermediary like Meph) - I don't hate or not like you, I really appreciate your friendship.

______________________________________________________________

Hopefully the formatting of this doesn't mess up and cause further misunderstandings.

I think the moral of the story is, I should have gone to Meph - rather than trying to resolve in thread, as it only escalated things even when that wasn't my intention. 2 Miscommunications/Misinterpretations lead to a massive fire, that wasn't ideal for anyone.

[Imp]

Welcome back, AP!

Claim from me meant the stuff you claimed for your actions and related.

"I dunno if you know what you're claiming, or care" = "Eskcanta's not gonna rolefish or discuss the claims you have made this game at this time".  Sorry to misuse language.  And I am not even thinking about you caring about the game itself, I agree, you're here, you care.  The rest, yeah.  I dunno about stuff that maybe I explore if the game goes to D3+, but I'ma not discuss until D3+ and then only if makes sense to.  But nothing about you in the game or not!

Huge apologies for my involvement in confusions.

I still claim I'm essentially functionally insane across many ways right now, but glad to be here!

And wow.  Good luck with medical stuff, rooting for you.

AnimePigeon

I don't want Sal (or anybody for that matter) to have to go through the suffering of considering an hero.

Hah.  Yeah one day the whole game might have nothing but heros, that'll be weird.

[Magma Mater]

Jim and Crystal, on the current trajectory, who do you think is getting eliminated today? Is that a good choice?

With the current trajectory, I'm betting on Agentt and Toony. These are my most suspicious suspects because Agentt has a bad vibe plus bandwagoning on pressure votes. Toony voted in quick succession with Sal onto Agentt. I suspect that Agentt is more likely to be eliminated than Toony but I would prefer the latter to be eliminated.

Oh look, a post from the killed townie that aligns with my preconceived beliefs. How convenient!

ToonyMan

My PoE is ToonyMan, Salvatore Monday, notquitethere, and Imp. I don't particularly suspect anyone other than ToonyMan. I tried voting for other people but I can't keep living a lie. ToonyMan is my One True Scumread.

[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
AnimePigeon: 1: ToonyMan
Salvatore Monday: 1: notquitethere
ToonyMan: 1: Magma Mater


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Tuesday

[ToonyMan]

I can't win the game if I'm a dopp Magma. In that scenario even if I survive today you're going to target me while Jim hides with someone, so I would have to kill you, but I have a funny feeling that wouldn't work out for dopp!me for various reasons. If I tried to guess who Jim hides with for the double kill it would still be only mylo with 4 players left, I would also be caught there by you.

It's an unwinnable scenario, and that's not even accounting for the completely unknown player roles. I don't think any solo dopp can win here because of the remaining town power roles, not dopp!Sal, not dopp!NQT, not dopp!Imp, not dopp!AnimePigeon. I'm trying to picture those outcomes and I can't, it would have to involve alien trickery which is why we still play smart instead of going with the flow.

[Imp]

I can't win the game if I'm a dopp Magma. In that scenario even if I survive today you're going to target me while Jim hides with someone, so I would have to kill you, but I have a funny feeling that wouldn't work out for dopp!me for various reasons. If I tried to guess who Jim hides with for the double kill it would still be only mylo with 4 players left, I would also be caught there by you.

It's an unwinnable scenario, and that's not even accounting for the completely unknown player roles. I don't think any solo dopp can win here because of the remaining town power roles, not dopp!Sal, not dopp!NQT, not dopp!Imp, not dopp!AnimePigeon. I'm trying to picture those outcomes and I can't, it would have to involve alien trickery which is why we still play smart instead of going with the flow.

Interesting that you expect Mater would target you and have to be killed.