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[Virtz]

How exactly is 4 less of an RPG than 3, tho? Like what has changed? Is it the 0-5 scale instead of 1-100 for skills? Is it the lower number of dialogue choices that FO3 didn't really make use of either?

Like I think it's a bit late to be complaining about reduction of RPG elements now. That happened way more between 2 and 3.

[nenjin]

I've enjoyed FO4 way more than FO3. The main story is still about as compelling as petrified cheese doodles, but the world design is way better. City ruins are exciting to explore and way more fun; not like the Ruins of DC where everything was basically a zoned off courtyard with impassible wreckage on all sides, and 90% of the game world was the goddamn underground Metro system. There's more going on per sq km in FO4 than I think in any other Bethesda game I've played. I don't really love the openness of exploring the world map (seriously there's next to no physical barriers to travel except the harbor and river in the map, and the points of interest themselves) but at least it's a slightly more interesting view than miles and miles of sand and rock.

Side quest amount to your average Bethesda game side-quest but I feel like some of them are more memorable due to the flavor. (Which tends toward the absurd.) And there are a lot of them. (Again more of that "high density content" I mentioned.)

Settlement building may not matter per se but it still got me to believe more in the world by dint of putting my mark on it. Sanctuary is a goddamn fortress now thanks to me. Little shit like building a walk in garage for my power armor, only accessible from my Money Penny Tower-like home, arranging my "Office" full of my display cases and racks, curio-cabinets of game quest items I keep as mementos, gun racks, my bar with my liquor collection...I put way more hours into the game because of it.

I basically cleared 100% of the map north of Diamond City so I feel like I've seen pretty much all of the early and mid game. FO4 isn't so good it magically stopped being a Bethesda game, but it's probably the slickest one to date. Normally I get 40 or 60 hours into a vanilla Bethesda game before the irrelevance of the mechanics and loot and world make me stop. But I think I went over 100 hours into FO4 because there was just enough there to keep me playing: guns, legendary items, magazines, power armor, customization, building. For someone who likes to live in Bethesda world as best it lets them, FO4 is a real step up on a lot of levels. For those who just want a better roleplaying experience via the game mechanics and story like the FO originals, FO4 is pretty much the same game Bethesda always makes.

One day Bethesda might remember that "the shit you do or don't do matters" is what made the original FO games so popular and actually make the world tick. Until then though, FO4 is set to be the Bethesda game that you can waste a billion hours on customizing yourself, your surroundings and add to the game world without mods. And mods will only dog pile on top of that. So this may be the Bethesda game for the ages for quite a while on that basis alone. It's certainly set a new standard on what we expect out of Bethesda games (on the scale of Bethesda games, that is )

[Rolan7]

How exactly is 4 less of an RPG than 3, tho? Like what has changed? Is it the 0-5 scale instead of 1-100 for skills? Is it the lower number of dialogue choices that FO3 didn't really make use of either?

Like I think it's a bit late to be complaining about reduction of RPG elements now. That happened way more between 2 and 3.

If you think 0-5 (or 0-3) perks, hardlocked to level, and hardlocked to a primary stat, are the equivalent of assigning skillpoints...  Then I'm sure you loved Skyrim?  I had the impression you were more a Morrowind fan, but maybe you welcomed that convenient streamlining.

Yeah they dropped some skills between 2 and 3, because they were translating into three dimensions.  The Outdoorsman skill didn't make sense without random encounters.  And it sucks that they capped skills at 100 for some reason.  But Fallout 4 is an entirely different category of game.  Fallout or not, it's just another perk-based shooter in terms of mechanics.  They dropped or combined several more stats, even counting these ridiculous "perk" replacements.

What happened to taking mentats to solve a puzzle?  That was in 3 and NV, but now it's just a tiny temporary XP boost.  That's all intelligence does anymore!  It's gone from an optimal stat to literally useless, comparing characters of equal level.  So good luck with those level-matched enemies.

Want to solve a quest nonviolentally?  Put on your best clothes and drink some liquid confidence that you made by assigning those int-based skillpoints to Survival and crafting special concoctions- no, none of that.  Enjoy a pure CHA check to maybe get some trivial info, or occasionally avoid a firefight.

Besides, why compare it to FO3?  I loved FO3, but NV really improved the RPG mechanics (besides nerfing VATS to hell, which only seems to bother me).

[nenjin]

I didn't really find myself as irritated by the streamlining of the skills as I thought I would be.

Yeah, FO4 is to FO3 as Skyrim is to Oblivion and Oblivion is to Morrowind. That's just the reality with Bethesda these days. At least the Perks ended up being fun and there was variety to them, unlike Skyrim whose perks were just boring as shit. I'd prefer Morrowind-style mechanics and I know plenty of people would but eventually you have to face facts they're not going back that way. FO4's skills did a good job of not making me think about them so I spent more time with my face in the action than in the perk screen. For better or worse, it works well with the kind of game Bethesda is now making these days. Best I can hope is one day they pare it down so far that their designers are like "Maybe we should try something, you know, interesting."

[Rolan7]

Frankly I prefer Skyrim's perks a *lot*, but I don't want to sound too contrary

I am glad people love this game.  I enjoyed it too, I can't deny!

[nenjin]

As originally created there were a lot of dud perks in Skyrim because of the game's own balance. That's what I didn't like. Melee perks wrecked, stealth perks were so good they made the game boring, there was tons of kruft in spell casting perks, and a shit load of grinding in the blacksmith and forging perks. Perk choice was like "Ok, do I want to deliberately make the game easier or chip away at a mountain of grind?" There's still some of that going on in FO4, but, there's no grinding, it just happens as you play, and two there's more fun effects at the various levels or effects that at least contribute to the game. You're not as stuck into perk requirements as you were in Skyrim. Part of me is sad that character building is literally reduced down to one screen. On the other hand, since I've given up on Bethesda as really wanting to make satisfying, crunchy mechanics, at least they've quit even making the attempt and doing it half-assed, and streamlined their own brand of mechanics in a way that works for the kind of game they're actually making. Nothing is sadder than seeing obligatory, vestigial RPG mechanics in a game series that has long stopped seeing them as important.

We'll see when the next Eldar Scrolls drops. I've accepted it for FO because it's its own series, has always been lighter on mechanics than ES games, and I accept the triviality of a lot of it due to the branding (S.P.E.C.I.A.L, Vault Boy, etc...) I don't know if I'd enjoy an ES game that has de-emphasized the RPG side of it as much as FO has. But in FO4, "it just works."

[Rolan7]

Huh.  I think our situations there are interestingly mirrored.  I want crunchiness from Fallout, and completely unbalanced power fantasy from TES.

You're totally right about Skyrim though, and I think ideally they'd both be well balanced and crunchy (at least before mods).  Heck, I enjoyed the completely unbalanced power fantasy more in Oblivion because I had to at least complete the mage guild quests first.  Whereas in Skyrim it was simply "hey with stealth and archery I can kill anything.  Oh hello poison and enchantment, I don't really need you but welcome"

[KingofstarrySkies]

I quite liked Oblivion's skill system, even if it was hilariously breakable. Acrobatics high enough and I Am NOW ABLE TO FLYYYY

[Flying Dice]

That's what made me the saddest, how they took away all the ludicrously broken stuff. Like allowing a maximum Chameleon enchantment of 20% per armor piece when you can wear five pieces.

[Sirbug]

SPECIAL was a rather poor system with redundancies between perks stats and skills, dump and god stat, disconnection between frozen stats and skills, blind snipers, masters of persuasion with no charisma and wimpy boxers. Overhaul was long overdue, although they probably went too far, I wouldn't call it this much change for the worse.

[Rolan7]

No, being able to defy your attributes is cool.

Being able to master any specific skill because you're intelligent is cool.

What do you even think was the god stat and the dump stat?  Because I can't think of any, except possibly dumping luck.  Which *gave a straight bonus to every single skill*

[Krevsin]

I disagree with the idea that Fallout 4 is Borderlands in a Fallout shell. Borderlands is centered entirely around the random loot mechanic and is far more reminiscent of Diablo in First Person than Fallout 4 is. Sure, you have random loot but you get better guns by upgrading them at a bench, not picking up drops from enemies. You can play the latter if you want but the game clearly reinforces the former.

Seriously people, I know that Borderlands is the biggest reference people have for "FPS-RPG Hybrid" but Fallout 4 isn't even remotely similar (apart from the fact that it's first person and you shoot stuff (but by that logic every FPS is Borderlands with a different skin)) in its mechanics. It is, as has been said, more like a Far Cry game with more RPG elements.

Not to mention the fact that while Fallout 4's shooting is superior to FNV's and miles ahead of FO3, it's not quite at the level of Borderlands 2 yet.

What happened to taking mentats to solve a puzzle?  That was in 3 and NV, but now it's just a tiny temporary XP boost.  That's all intelligence does anymore!  It's gone from an optimal stat to literally useless, comparing characters of equal level.  So good luck with those level-matched enemies.

Want to solve a quest nonviolentally?  Put on your best clothes and drink some liquid confidence that you made by assigning those int-based skillpoints to Survival and crafting special concoctions- no, none of that.  Enjoy a pure CHA check to maybe get some trivial info, or occasionally avoid a firefight.

Erm, you can still do that. Clothes still give you a CHA boost and so do various drugs. If you want to take mentats to achieve that, take grape mentats. they're the ones with a CHA boost.

Now if your complaint is that more situations cannot be solved by talking, using different stats than Charisma or skill checks then yes, you are entirely correct.

[KingofstarrySkies]

...Why was there never an actual Diablo in first person. Oh my god. That'd be fucking great. Same theme, same time-period, same hilarious amount of enemies, but you're in first person.

gosh darn it i want that a lot now

[Ultimuh]

...Why was there never an actual Diablo in first person. Oh my god. That'd be fucking great. Same theme, same time-period, same hilarious amount of enemies, but you're in first person.

gosh darn it i want that a lot now

So you want Skyrim with completely randomized loot?

[Glloyd]

...Why was there never an actual Diablo in first person. Oh my god. That'd be fucking great. Same theme, same time-period, same hilarious amount of enemies, but you're in first person.

gosh darn it i want that a lot now

So you want Skyrim with completely randomized loot?

You're implying that Skyrim is a first person Diablo though. Which in itself implies that you've either never played Skyrim or never played Diablo.