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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1247590 times)

RedKing

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2730 on: September 01, 2012, 09:24:42 am »

"Chance in the future"... history of American political scuffles (especially the conservative bits of 'em :-\) not exactly being my strong point, was there a point in the last few decades where there was a chance? Seems like this may be a shift toward the more blatant, but still be kind of standard operating procedure.
In the 1800's, the nominee wasn't decided *until* the convention. The primary elections are a relatively new phenomenon in American politics. The 1912 RNC was a good example. Teddy Roosevelt won 9 of 12 primaries, Robert LaFollette won two, and Taft won only one (presumably because he was still trying to squeeze out of his hotel room door during the other 11). However, the remaining 36 states didn't have primaries. So delegates were chosen by the state party bosses. Most of those delegates were then contested. Taft ran the RNC, which controlled how to award contested delegates. Big surprise, over 90% of them were awarded to Taft, which put him over the top. Roosevelt had his delegates abstain from voting, in protest. They walked out, went over to another auditorium, and formed the Bull Moose Party (which actually beat the Republican party in the general election, but both got clobbered by Woodrow Wilson and the Democrats).

Even the 1976 RNC was a good example, when Reagan waged an inurgency against Ford. Failed to get him on the ticket, but it set the stage for him in 1980.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2731 on: September 01, 2012, 09:29:35 am »

Obama beating Romney on black voters, 94% to 0%.

In actuality they only surveyed 1000 people, but goddamn.
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RedKing

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2732 on: September 01, 2012, 09:40:52 am »

Obama beating Romney on black voters, 94% to 0%.

In actuality they only surveyed 1000 people, but goddamn.
With a margin of error of 3.1%. I like to think there's a possibility he actually got negative votes.

I can't imagine why.
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lordcooper

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2733 on: September 01, 2012, 09:45:27 am »

Obama beating Romney on black voters, 94% to 0%.

In actuality they only surveyed 1000 people, but goddamn.

It's probably because they're all racist.
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Frumple

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2734 on: September 01, 2012, 09:46:14 am »

Even the 1976 RNC was a good example, when Reagan waged an inurgency against Ford. Failed to get him on the ticket, but it set the stage for him in 1980.
Sooo... only three decades and a little change? Six, seven primaries, something like that?

Good information, though, and I welcome a better informed viewpoint greatly, heh. Guess what I was thinking was that th'kind of behavior we saw is just sorta' the new face of the beast, or the face of the new beast, anyway. GOP's changed, etc., etc. Face of politics in general (in the states) seems to have turned for the worse in the last couple decades (steady-seeming decline since I was aware enough to notice, anyway), really. Hopefully it's just a temporary thing, and maybe it's still roughly following the historical pattern of things, but... suppose when you're in the recession, so to speak, it's hard to see anything but the recession.
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RedKing

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2735 on: September 01, 2012, 09:59:53 am »

Yeah, we hear a lot of talk about "how partisan it is now" or "how Congress is so polarized". It's like hearing "kids these days and that noise they call music". If you look at American political history, it's ALWAYS been contentious and divided. People forget that in 1856, we saw a Representative from South Carolina beat the living shit out of Senator Charles Sumner from Massachusetts over a slavery debate.

Or a bench-clearing brawl in Congress in 1858 that saw over 50 participants. Granted, that sort of thing would be shocking now, but the level of vitriol and lies and propaganda really isn't new. It's just more constantly in our face.

(Albeit, we're just a welterweight compared to the legislative brawls that break out in Taiwan or S. Korea)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 10:03:58 am by RedKing »
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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2736 on: September 01, 2012, 10:03:35 am »

My rage. It is palpable. I can feel it with my palps.

I sincerely hope that Ron Paul and his followers break away from that shameful organization. I'm not a fan of the man's politics, but holy shit those guys are so tyrannically evil.
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Truean

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2737 on: September 01, 2012, 10:06:52 am »

We're either witnessing a resurgence or the last hurrah of the old brand of conservatism in the US with this. I'm really not sure which, but frankly, you can smell a bit of desperation with how negative things have gotten. I'm sorry, but the right is far more negative than the left in this one, though maybe that's just all the Rush Limbaugh I'm hearing. At least the left is attempting to attack Romney's record and Ryan's philosophy. The right, from what I'm hearing, is making just about every attack personal on Obama. They're questioning everything right down to his citizenship and not being born in this country ( though McCain absolutely wasn't born in the US, but rather Panama).

What's really quite tragic is that I have heard NOTHING from either side that adequately addresses any problem we're facing in this country. I'm a details person, because I can't deal in bullshit. Obama wants to throw good money after bad in failed government programs and Romney wants to throw money at rich people in the hope they'll start hiring with it. Neither plan is gonna work, because throwing money isn't the solution, it's what you hit with the money you throw.

As for the RNC convention, I don't even know. I watched a part of it, and it's just another political cheer fest for the most part. Although that was slightly interrupted by the whole "not appearing fair to Ron Paul supporters" thing. I truly do not get the Republican response here from a purely tactical standpoint. Everybody knew Ron Paul wasn't gonna get the nomination, and that was never really what he was bringing to the table. Rather, his followers are pretty dedicated libertarian voters who can go either way. Ron Paul was going to provide the RNC with an invaluable service of wooing these voters to their candidate, except the RNC screwed it up by making them feel excluded over... nothing really. I don't get it. Making people vote for them with bullshit warm fuzzy feelings is what politicians are all about; why didn't the RNC do that with the Ron Paul people?

Yeah, we hear a lot of talk about "how partisan it is now" or "how Congress is so polarized". It's like hearing "kids these days and that noise they call music". If you look at American political history, it's ALWAYS been contentious and divided. People forget that in 1856, we saw a Representative from South Carolina beat the living shit out of Senator Charles Sumner from Massachusetts over a slavery debate.

Or a bench-clearing brawl in Congress in 1858 that saw over 50 participants. Granted, that sort of thing would be shocking now, but the level of vitriol and lies and propaganda really isn't new. It's just more constantly in our face.

I'll go with the "constantly in our face," part. I'll of course say this has all been done before since before the fall of Rome as well. Problem: we used to have something called "polite conversation," where you'd keep this shit out of it for at least a little while. It is now all people talk about, in gutter phrases and tones. Business meetings, church, every damn thing seems to have people swawking about it. Used to be it was [insert sports team] or [local scandal, because there's always one going on] or even [school board] or how about [that neighbor people talk about behind their back because people are terrible] or something, but now it's seemingly always this and it's worse. I mean, at least before if you asked/told somebody to shut up about it, they would. Now they seem to respond with, "I'm just saying," as if I didn't know they were saying it and as if I weren't asking them to just not say it....

No?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 10:10:44 am by Truean »
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Leafsnail

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2738 on: September 01, 2012, 10:23:42 am »

Don't worry Ron Paul.  Market forces mean that private organisations can never engage in oppression.

They're questioning everything right down to his citizenship and not being born in this country ( though McCain absolutely wasn't born in the US, but rather Panama).
I don't feel so inclined to attack McCain though - I think his refusal to join many of his supporters in personal attacks on Obama was admirable.  It does show some serious hypocrisy in the Republican camp, though.
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Heron TSG

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2739 on: September 01, 2012, 10:27:00 am »

The way I see it, Obama's platform might keep giving me money for college, and Romney's would not not. I will most likely not be able to afford college if I don't have money to pay for it. I would not like to be in irreparable debt. The social issues are icing on the cake, in parts, but I'd rather they be some other metaphorical food because without Obamacare I probably couldn't afford health insurance to pay for a dentist. I like to think that I'm voting for him because I agree with him more, but I really don't. He's moderate-conservative, I'm LCS-brand Elite Liberal. I do like his stance on gay rights, but his track record on privacy is double-plus-ungood. I could probably live with Romney's social policies, though I wouldn't much like them. I could not live with not having enough money to live on. I suppose that's really where we've gotten with this student debt bullshit. I'm starting to think that us youngfolk are being played. Tuition going up? Well, the Democrats sure have a better stance on helping you pay for that! Oh, it's still going up? Imagine that! I suppose you'll have to pick our candidate, then. It's too bad we couldn't just fix the damn system. What? Healthcare is too damn expensive for college students with their ludicrous debts? My, we could extend their parents' health insurance policies to cover that. Ooh, and once we switch to that system and they have no healthcare of their own, we can position the Republicans as spooky bogeymen just waiting to pull the rug out from under them. Then they'll fucking have to vote for us.

Or do we? I'm getting pretty goddamn tired of this two party system. But where's the viable solution?

Agh.
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Nadaka

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2740 on: September 01, 2012, 10:45:06 am »

The US founding fathers did not construct the US government in a way that anticipated the formation and power of political parties. First Past the Post winner take all elections combined with geographical district based assemblies almost guarantee a system dominated by two parties.

Adding range voting for single position offices and proportional representation for assemblies would go a long way towards breaking the duopoly on power in the US.
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Solifuge

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2741 on: September 01, 2012, 10:45:06 am »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B39W91O-rUg
Good. god.

WTF is this shit?
Everybody knew Ron Paul wasn't gonna get the nomination, and that was never really what he was bringing to the table. Rather, his followers are pretty dedicated libertarian voters who can go either way. Ron Paul was going to provide the RNC with an invaluable service of wooing these voters to their candidate, except the RNC screwed it up by making them feel excluded over... nothing really. I don't get it. Making people vote for them with bullshit warm fuzzy feelings is what politicians are all about; why didn't the RNC do that with the Ron Paul people?

Regarding the Ron Paul thing... I continue to find it hard to agree with the media's assertion that he'd have had no chance. I believe he could have united Libertarians, many Democrats dissatisfied with Obama's reluctance to push for reform, the ever-growing Reagan Republicans who find it hard to find a candidate to support these days, and is the first Republican candidate I've seen who'd have appealed to the LGBT crowd with his stance on getting government out of the religious ceremony that is marriage. He kept a good division between his religious values and his political policy, respecting that they were different things, and didn't have to inform one another. He had some dramatic notions about governmental reform, but some post-primary grooming would certainly have tempered his more radical notions, as with most candidates. I'd have liked to see where he and his staff would go; strong opinions and an ability to compromise are cornerstones of a good politics... not another sycophant smiling, nodding, and voting safely along party lines. That way lies stagnation.

But yes, were this an unbiased representative system, I believe he could have easily swung those on the fence to the GOP's side, and had a good shot at defeating the incumbent. Instead, Paul was barred from several primary debates, when he got there he was laughed at and ignored by the hosts until the crowd yelling to let him speak was too large to gloss over, and after editing still had commercial breaks and such cut him off. These are all things that happened, but people don't like to talk about them, or what they may represent. As in the above link, there really does seem to have been a concerted effort to laugh him off the stage, silence him, and barring that to sew the notion that he was too fringe or too extreme to have a shot. And that succeeded.

He was a serious candidate, with some ideas to bring real and needed change to fiscal policy in the government. Instead, the media took a dismissive attitude toward him, and people came to echo the same conclusion. A flat tax, and other forms of real fiscal responsibility must be a scary thing for those in monetary power, for them to feel the need to summon their funds and exercise their influence over the media to blatantly and directly oppose it that way.

The end result is that when asked, many many people will say that they liked him, and a lot of his policies, but figured he wouldn't have had a chance. Divide people with messages of doubt and futility, and what they feel or support wont matter; you've defeated them already. Such is the price of having a mass media who require heavy funding to still exist, especially in an age where advertising dollars are evaporating. The wealthy will continue to have control of information, and thus undue influence over our government, until we find ways within the system of holding them accountable.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 10:51:42 am by Solifuge »
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GreatJustice

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2742 on: September 01, 2012, 10:52:37 am »


As for the RNC convention, I don't even know. I watched a part of it, and it's just another political cheer fest for the most part. Although that was slightly interrupted by the whole "not appearing fair to Ron Paul supporters" thing. I truly do not get the Republican response here from a purely tactical standpoint. Everybody knew Ron Paul wasn't gonna get the nomination, and that was never really what he was bringing to the table. Rather, his followers are pretty dedicated libertarian voters who can go either way. Ron Paul was going to provide the RNC with an invaluable service of wooing these voters to their candidate, except the RNC screwed it up by making them feel excluded over... nothing really. I don't get it. Making people vote for them with bullshit warm fuzzy feelings is what politicians are all about; why didn't the RNC do that with the Ron Paul people?

What they did KIND of makes sense in a certain way.

Had Paul not been impeded by the RNC, there would have (A) been a floor fight (derailing the coronation of Romney) and (B) He would have had a 15 minute speech (which could very well have been critical of Romney). However, they also alienated what potentially could have been a sizable GOP voting block, hurt themselves demographically (since most young Republican-leaners tend to be Paul supporters these days), and alienated several state parties that have been taken over by Paulites. Worse case scenario for Romney right now is Paul endorses Gary Johnson and then the Paul controlled state parties replace Romney on the ballot with someone else/have the electors not vote for him. Since a lot of the Paulite controlled areas are swing states (Nevada, Maine) they could actually cause Romney some significant damage.

Mind, I don't see Romney winning this election. He's actually managed to become far more unlikeable than 2010-2011 Barack Obama, and that's really saying something. The man is positively dripping with smugness, is completely out of touch with the average American (again, more than Obama, which is saying something), and is practically made of plastic. The only way Obama is going to lose is if he screws up somehow or a gigantic depression hits.
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Nadaka

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2743 on: September 01, 2012, 10:53:43 am »

@Solifuge?

What makes you think Ron Paul wants government out of marriage? He voted for the "Defense Of Marriage Act".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act

What makes you think Ron Paul kept his religious views and politics separate? He wrote the "We The People Act".
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr539
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 11:00:16 am by Nadaka »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: PoH's Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #2744 on: September 01, 2012, 10:58:04 am »

Had Paul not been impeded by the RNC, there would have (A) been a floor fight (derailing the coronation of Romney) and (B) He would have had a 15 minute speech (which could very well have been critical of Romney).
So? Unless I'm missing something, this is still supposed to be a democracy. Dissent is a good thing.
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