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[SalmonGod]

Now what I really don't understand is how anybody can conclude that such an entity is worthy of their support 

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Well, Calvin himself started out with the ever popular "believe what I say or burn as a heretic" method of member gathering. These days it is inertia and childhood indoctrination.

[Scoops Novel]

This hatred of the poor/sympathy for the rich thing is pretty insane, especially since many of the people I've witnessed first-hand expressing those sentiments are lower class themselves.

Later, I'll find a quote, but for now, I'll leave it at crab bucket. Unseen Academicals had that down perfectly.

[GreatJustice]

You know, GreatJustice, for someone who screams "Strawman!" every time someone disagrees with you, you sure love to utilize that particular fallacy to help your own arguments.

That wasn't an argument, though.

[justinlee999]

For some reason the Just World fallacy is really common where I live. Must be because of how Asians are prone to believe in "what goes around comes around", though.

I believed in this myself until one day I realized that no good deed goes unpunished.

Also, on an unrelated note:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott

Everyone should be loving her right now.

[10ebbor10]

Now what I really don't understand is how anybody can conclude that such an entity is worthy of their support 

It's easy to believe in such an entity if you you're on top of the ladder, since it gives you a good reason not to help the poor.

It even works for the poor if you mingle it with the American dream a bit. (God is testing me now, but soon the test will be over and I'll be rich, hence, no rich taxing to aid poor).

[Scelly9]

Also, on an unrelated note:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott

Everyone should be loving her right now.

It's really too bad that doing that now would get you sued so, so fast.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Also, on an unrelated note:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott

Everyone should be loving her right now.

It's really too bad that doing that now would get you sued so, so fast.

Uh, no, that's a pretty good thing. There are other ways to teach children that bigotry is bad other than subjecting them to it.

[GlyphGryph]

Sure, you can teach them sympathy, if they're open to it. But you can't teach them understanding.

I, for one, think understanding is valuable. Being hurt, esp. in ways that are temporary (and the reconciliation that often seems to come at the end of the exercise seems indicative of that) is how we grow as people.

As they say, there's no substitute for experience. A brief dip won't leave you much worse for wear, and while it won't sink in the magnitude by itself, it can at least help you understand the concept. Without that core to work from, it's hard to academically arrive at the goal of learning, that being true understanding.

You might be able to play on already existing injuries the children have suffered to bring the point home, of course, but I feel like that would be far more dangerous than a two-day experiment with a prescribed end and a culture that will quickly erase the damage done by refusing to reinforce the division.

I don't think the goal was to teach "bigotry is bad", but rather to teach "this is what bigotry is like".

[10ebbor10]

Also, on an unrelated note:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott

Everyone should be loving her right now.

It's really too bad that doing that now would get you sued so, so fast.

Uh, no, that's a pretty good thing. There are other ways to teach children that bigotry is bad other than subjecting them to it.

Yeah, there're quite a few of these social experiments that went wrong, and [almost] ended up reinforcing the system.

[GlyphGryph]

Examples of "these types" of experiment going wrong and reinforcing the system?

* GlyphGryph is legitimately interested in such stories.

(but don't even think about bringing up the Milligram experiments, which were absolutely nothing like this in any meaningful way as they weren't even in the same CLASS, being research experiments rather than educational ones, and ALSO weren't really any thing like what pop culture describes)

[Reelya]

I'd also like to see examples of these sorts of experiments going out of control.

The point of the blue eye/brown eye experiment was to illustrate how arbitrary discrimination based on some superficial characteristic was, and to give a first-hand experience of being on the receiving end of that discrimination. The experiment was actually a great way to enlighten the subjects to how things work in reality, with zero chance of going "out of control" because eye-color based discrimination isn't a real-world thing it had no chance of spreading. And it definitely didn't "popularize" discrimination.

If you read the description of the original experiment, afterwards the teacher switched the dominance around, and allowed the brown-eyes to "get their own back", but their "revenge" was a lot less intense than the original blue-eyes discrimination. This indicates to me that the experiment was successful in building empathy for those discriminated against.

===

If you want to talk about experiments that went out of control, I would argue that the 2 best candidates were the Third Wave and Stanford Prison experiment. But I'd strongly contend that neither of these "reinforced the system". The subjects in the Stanford Prison Experiment were not actual guards or prisoners, so whatever experiences they had couldn't possibly reinforce anything.

I'm also not buying that the Third Wave experiment lead to an increase in Hilter-Youth-style organizations in the USA. The teacher created a cult of personality around himself as an authoritarian figure with strong group discipline, this "movement" couldn't possibly survive "in the wild" and you can get that any participants came out of it more skeptical than before.

[penguinofhonor]

We had the eye color thing in my elementary school for a day. Not quite to that extent, though. Nobody got sued.

[misko27]

I am of the opnion people tend to be massive assholes unless they can associate with the problem.Hence, gay marriage spread to people often when they know a gay individual, and this is effective.
 
I think. I have no clue what anyone is talking about, but I have a clue. This was a demonstration of how people with only a clue can seem to legitamately contribute to the conversation. Although I know about the stamford prison experiment.

[lorb]

Examples of "these types" of experiment going wrong and reinforcing the system?

I'd also like to see examples of these sorts of experiments going out of control.
[...]
If you want to talk about experiments that went out of control, I would argue that the 2 best candidates were the Third Wave and Stanford Prison experiment. But I'd strongly contend that neither of these "reinforced the system". The subjects in the Stanford Prison Experiment were not actual guards or prisoners, so whatever experiences they had couldn't possibly reinforce anything.

It is by definition that those experiments can't "survive in the wild". An experiment is a methodical controlled procedure. If it gets out of control the setting either collapses or becomes part of society, both of which end it as an experiment. Now if you want an example of the latter I'd argue that IQ-Tests are such a thing. They are known to be culturally biased but are used to create a kind of intellectual hierarchy. It's a vicious circle as well. If you are black/other minority you are likely to score lower on an IQ-Test and in consequence are less supported in your intellectual growth. And if you are arguing that this is not because the tests themselves are biased but society is and creates and environment in which minorities score lower on perfectly fine tests even the American Psychological Association stated that the tests they use contain cultural influence and are not a pure measurement of cognitive ability.