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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1247244 times)

Descan

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kaijyuu

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7876 on: October 16, 2013, 02:27:50 pm »

Aye, I've been looking for good statistics on that subject for a while. Looks legitimate :)

My only problem is the bolded part here:
Quote
It turns out that fathers who ask for custody (and don't give up) are very likely to get either sole or joint custody:

And that's probably not a problem that has anything to do with gender; long divorce and custody cases take a huge toll on kids too, and a good parent might want to end the case early to keep the stress off their kids.



So now I'm wondering if there's a gender bias with short custody cases; if little information is provided that either parent is better suited to take care of the child, does it default to one or the other on gender lines? Probably difficult to get information on that.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 02:31:39 pm by kaijyuu »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7877 on: October 17, 2013, 06:11:30 am »

That's my main problem with the information presented, too, and I think shoddy presentation is mainly to blame.

Quote
Study 1: MASS
2100 cases where fathers sought custody (100%)
5 year duration

29% of fathers got primary custody
65% of fathers got joint custody
7% of mothers got primary custody

Study 2: MASS
700 cases. In 57, (8.14%) father sought custody
6 years

67% of fathers got primary custody
23% of mothers got primary custody

Study 3: MASS
500 cases. In 8% of these cases, father sought custody
6 years

41% of fathers got sole custody
38% of fathers got joint custody
15% of mothers got sole custody

They list a duration of 5/6 years with each study.  Is that the length of time the father spent fighting for custody, or the duration of the study itself?  Because if it's the former, I don't find it very encouraging.

Most of the article feels like data just tossed about haphazardly.  She didn't put much effort into painting a coherent picture with it.  So I don't know what to think.  I guess she just expects everyone to follow her links to understand them.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 06:52:17 am by SalmonGod »
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Leafsnail

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7878 on: October 17, 2013, 06:50:07 am »

That seems like a biased sample.  Fathers probably seek legal advice and only push for custody if they're likely to get it.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7879 on: October 17, 2013, 06:52:23 am »

I also don't like the implications in that a non-working parent has the advantage in a custody case.  I understand why it would be that way, but that doesn't make it any less rotten.  If anything, the working parent has more tangible proof of their ability to handle responsibility, while the non-working parent doesn't prove anything regarding their suitability as a parent by not working.  I've seen a few cases first-hand (going both ways gender-wise) of one parent staying home under the guise of childrearing just to do whatever the hell they want and mostly ignore their parenting, or where one parent works because they're better educated or better at holding down a job, but would also clearly be better with the children if they were able to stay home with them.
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Max White

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7880 on: October 17, 2013, 07:04:16 am »

Oh look, as soon as we see a study that goes against preconceived notions time to try and knock it down!  :P
Actually that is exactly right, we should always question studies, regardless of our personal opinion on the subject. Anyway I have some interesting reading, maybe for another night, there is a lot of information in those sources.
I will say that that first study linked was commissioned in 1986... Five years before I was even born. You know I understand you can't do a new study every week, but something from this decade, or heck even millenia would be nice, and perhaps with more broad a scope than the state of Massachusetts. Irrelevant data is irrelevant. Unproven point is unproven.

I'll get reading on more tomorrow, it is getting late here...

kaijyuu

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7881 on: October 17, 2013, 12:11:08 pm »

I'd also like some data that's broken down between divorce custody cases vs all other custody cases. Mainly curious as to whether the man or woman gets stuck with the child if neither wants it (almost certain it goes to the woman), and checking if the kids were outside of wedlock is probably a decent metric for whether the parents wanted it or not.


Anyway, I'm probably more willing to believe the conclusions of that article than most here it seems, but yeah, more data and more recent data would be nice.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 12:13:31 pm by kaijyuu »
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For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Max White

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7882 on: October 17, 2013, 06:21:44 pm »

Yea, looking more deeply at the source, all those numbers provided from various studies are from the early 80's or late 70's. I'm also wondering what the definition of 'sought custody' means in this context. If a man were to try and negotiate through a court system but find the battle winnable and drop out early does he still count? The very low rates of men actually 'seeking custody' makes me wonder about their unprovided definitions. Still, totally irrelevant information if you are trying to disprove a modern perception, as these social trends are decades old.

It is hard for me to comment on the second source, as the link seems to not work for me. Still, there is this little nugget from the page supposedly disproving these perseptions.

Quote
Old stereotypes die hard, though, and fathers’ rights advocates say neutral statutory language has done little to change the courts’ pro-mother leanings. Moms are granted custody in 85 percent of all cases, notes Dianna Thompson, executive director of the Washington, D.C.-based American Coalition for Fathers and Children. She says the expense of litigation and likelihood of losing discourages many dads from even fighting for custody.

However, statistics on custody awards can be deceiving, since most custody orders are uncontested or negotiated by the parties. A 1992 study of California cases showed that fathers were awarded primary or joint custody in about half of contested custody matters.
Well at least that was in my lifetime, so that is a plus, right? Once again, what is a contested custody matter? Does a party have to fight to the bitter end for it to count?

I'm left wondering how many of the five states mentioned still have maternal preferences, if any. Honestly so far all of this information is way past its expiry date. I'm left to wonder did the author not actually carefully read the information? Did they think nobody would do any fact checking? Do they not understand that social trends and laws might have changed since the 90's (Or even 70's in some cases)? Why am I being given information that is very misleading when you leave a date off?


The next myth on the chopping block is that fathers pay higher child support, and claims this is false. The link provided for this one looks like a government website that would be changed to reflect current trends, but no, it is a journal issue from the 1st September, 1994. Well a hand of applause, as we are getting a little closer to something relevant with each link! No really, your going to get food poisoning if you don't check the date. Is there really no more relevant information on the entire internet on this subject to link me to? Or is the more up to date stuff not fall in line with the conclusion?

On to fathers not spending as much time with their kids. The diagnosis? True! Men spend about half as much time with their children as women according to a 2007 report. But don't worry, that is changing, as it is up from 2.5 to 6.5 hours on average, and it only took 35 years to get there. Still not exactly 12.9, but getting there. Still, while this study was made in 2007, it is ranging from 1965 to 2000. I would love to see their data collection method.


Ok, breakfast time for me...

Frumple

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7883 on: October 17, 2013, 07:24:40 pm »

Child support? Data? Well. This might be something that can help. What it tells you (beyond just plugging it in) is that there's a formula, per state, on how to calculate the child support rate. This would appear to be a convenient list of individual provisions for each state. Those'd be some places to start your search. If you were really trying to brass tacks things, you'd probably have to hunt down the minutes or whatever of individual child support cases and find out what the judge's reasoning is, since there is some wiggle room beyond the state's given rate based on varying circumstances.

Also, yeah, it's not uncommon for it to be hard to find up to date research on stuff like this. Studies often take a bloody long time.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 07:26:24 pm by Frumple »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7885 on: November 26, 2013, 11:04:49 pm »

I thought we were missing one of the major threads.
Pregnant Woman Charged With Absconding With Fetus
Because that's not a precedent that could result in terrible consequences.
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misko27

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7886 on: November 26, 2013, 11:18:52 pm »

That is just so fundamentally wrong, so opposed to basic ideas of human decency, and requires such a massive deviation from the basic laws of property, childcare, and pregnancy, that I think the judge that ruled that should be stripped of his title.


The Appeals court seems to have made the wise decision here; so as long as the judge in California can let go of his ego, family court can take it over.
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scriver

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7887 on: November 27, 2013, 12:05:46 am »

Wow. Speechless. So wrong.
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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7888 on: November 27, 2013, 10:54:55 am »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25118156
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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #7889 on: November 27, 2013, 11:50:48 am »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25118156
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The US authorities have studied online sexual activity and suggested exposing porn site visits as a way to discredit people who spread radical views
That's fucking stupid.
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