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Author Topic: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!  (Read 358681 times)

Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #765 on: October 13, 2014, 01:17:55 pm »

Update 10: Procedural Generation, Minions, and Greenlight
Quote
If you'd like to see the actual stats for these minions, or if you'd like to get another sampling, please let us know!


Can I see their stat sheets? :x
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nenjin

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #766 on: October 13, 2014, 01:19:22 pm »

Update 10: Procedural Generation, Minions, and Greenlight
Quote
If you'd like to see the actual stats for these minions, or if you'd like to get another sampling, please let us know!


Can I see their stat sheets? :x

Give it naow.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Mithras

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #767 on: October 13, 2014, 02:17:05 pm »

If you're married to the god of death being the god of undeath then a solution may be to de couple death from undeath. Thematically your awakening is breaking down the gates of the underworld, the more ancient power you have the more undead you have at your disposal. However, since the souls of the dead are pretty much infinite adding more souls to the underworld does not increase the number of undead avaliable to you, as they go straight to the underworld. This prevents your classic zombie horde but means you actually have a resource to manage rather than snowballing by creating your own resource doing what you're already supposed to do. It also opens up a couple of ritual ideas, an agent opening a second gate to the underworld would provide you with more undead to throw around but be comparatively easy for the heroes to close. An agent putting up a barrier between life and death would allow you to play as the old broken undead old one who snowballs for a while, but generate a massive quest, something that makes literally every hero turn up to try and stop it, drops clue tokens everywhere and makes your agent certain to be hunted down.

Just my two cents. Create an old one of death and undeath but keep the two mostly distinct and unable to feed into each other. (the idea of killing a specific part of the animal or human population and then raising them back up again seems really cool to me, how do you deal with undead locusts which never stop eating? Are the undead sages you made going to be discovered and hunted down, or is their knowledge seen as to valuable for them to be destroyed?"

This is also a very interesting interpretation - part of the difficulty for me in introducing a concept of the underworld is I want to truly integrate it into the game - it also may trod a bit on the feet of the Gods.  But I'm going to let this idea percolate for a bit, and see how it feels.  I'm trying to purposefully not think about the Death God right now (because it's a tantalizing problem) so we can focus on more fundamental mechanics until we want to tackle him again, but it's good to try and figure out how these other implementations may work within our system.

While I understand that at this point your time is much better spent elsewhere I thought it might be important to stress that the important part of the idea is to decouple the number of corpses in the world from the power of the old one, why this is the case (theme) and how this is the case (mechanics) is somewhat beyond my ability to speculate- though of course I tried!
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Zangi

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #768 on: October 13, 2014, 03:44:02 pm »

If you're married to the god of death being the god of undeath then a solution may be to de couple death from undeath. Thematically your awakening is breaking down the gates of the underworld, the more ancient power you have the more undead you have at your disposal. However, since the souls of the dead are pretty much infinite adding more souls to the underworld does not increase the number of undead avaliable to you, as they go straight to the underworld. This prevents your classic zombie horde but means you actually have a resource to manage rather than snowballing by creating your own resource doing what you're already supposed to do. It also opens up a couple of ritual ideas, an agent opening a second gate to the underworld would provide you with more undead to throw around but be comparatively easy for the heroes to close. An agent putting up a barrier between life and death would allow you to play as the old broken undead old one who snowballs for a while, but generate a massive quest, something that makes literally every hero turn up to try and stop it, drops clue tokens everywhere and makes your agent certain to be hunted down.

Just my two cents. Create an old one of death and undeath but keep the two mostly distinct and unable to feed into each other. (the idea of killing a specific part of the animal or human population and then raising them back up again seems really cool to me, how do you deal with undead locusts which never stop eating? Are the undead sages you made going to be discovered and hunted down, or is their knowledge seen as to valuable for them to be destroyed?"

This is also a very interesting interpretation - part of the difficulty for me in introducing a concept of the underworld is I want to truly integrate it into the game - it also may trod a bit on the feet of the Gods.  But I'm going to let this idea percolate for a bit, and see how it feels.  I'm trying to purposefully not think about the Death God right now (because it's a tantalizing problem) so we can focus on more fundamental mechanics until we want to tackle him again, but it's good to try and figure out how these other implementations may work within our system.

While I understand that at this point your time is much better spent elsewhere I thought it might be important to stress that the important part of the idea is to decouple the number of corpses in the world from the power of the old one, why this is the case (theme) and how this is the case (mechanics) is somewhat beyond my ability to speculate- though of course I tried!
Well, this interpretation of Death is basically something like a necromancer I assume.  It is kinda generic and not 'Old One' material... as its objectives of killing everything for *insert generic death god/thing reason* is all there is to it... 
But if you insist, I agree with Mithras, decouple its eldritch powers from things dying.

If there is an issue of balance, generic undead made from non-combatants are near worthless fodder that will basically be a waste of Mana(or whatever you use), most likely a last ditch effort, use em to screen an agent's escape or something.  If they have no experience in fighting during their life, their afterlife will be the same. 
A random dead peasant isn't miraculously going to get a sword or even armor out of nowhere either.  Maybe they can come with a pitchfork or some other improvised weapon.  (Add in the restriction that undead troops cannot get better/gain experience.)
Nor can the undead be easily fixed.  Broken bones are broken bones, patching that together is basically life magic, most likely an affront to Death.  So even if you do try to fix the dead, you and yours won't be proficient at it...  Goes with the idea that blunt weapons are indeed, super effective against the undead, break their bones and they won't come back up. 
Otherwise, it is pretty much generic snowballing of an ever big horde of undead that only ever fights enemies weaker then itself and comes out even stronger each time as it both 'heals' its own and recruits the recently dead fighters, till it hits the tipping point.  Well, that'll still happen, but it slows it down significantly...

Meh, Necromancer/Underworld Death isn't really interesting as Farmer Death and Back-to-Nature Death.
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Cthulhu

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #769 on: October 13, 2014, 03:53:33 pm »

I'm bored of death gods in general.

Ooh, another interesting one.  The Sleepers of Avarrach in that Infinity online TCG.  An advanced civilization falls prey to some cyborganic infection that turns the entire population into techno-zombies.  The still-sapient shepherds of the infection can open dimensional rifts.  Instead of having the traditional exponentially accelerating cycle of infection you've got rifts opening up to a dimension that's already fallen, billions of zombies trying to pour their way through.

I'm not making serious suggestions, I'm just throwing stuff at the wall.

Another thing that caught my fancy is the totally badass super-stylized picts from Ryse.  That kind of thing would make a fun red entity for a Roman game.  Crazy-ass barbarians from the deepest darkest ancient woods with wicker men rituals and shit.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 03:58:44 pm by Cthulhu »
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KingDinosaurGames

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #770 on: October 13, 2014, 04:39:30 pm »

Update 10: Procedural Generation, Minions, and Greenlight
Quote
If you'd like to see the actual stats for these minions, or if you'd like to get another sampling, please let us know!


Can I see their stat sheets? :x

Give it naow.

Oh yeah interest - you want the JSON dump or do you want some screenshots of their in-game description and stats?
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nenjin

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #771 on: October 13, 2014, 04:41:20 pm »

Update 10: Procedural Generation, Minions, and Greenlight
Quote
If you'd like to see the actual stats for these minions, or if you'd like to get another sampling, please let us know!


Can I see their stat sheets? :x

Give it naow.

Oh yeah interest - you want the JSON dump or do you want some screenshots of their in-game description and stats?

Sexy screen shots plox.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

KingDinosaurGames

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #772 on: October 13, 2014, 04:47:33 pm »

Well, this interpretation of Death is basically something like a necromancer I assume.  It is kinda generic and not 'Old One' material... as its objectives of killing everything for *insert generic death god/thing reason* is all there is to it... 
But if you insist, I agree with Mithras, decouple its eldritch powers from things dying.

If there is an issue of balance, generic undead made from non-combatants are near worthless fodder that will basically be a waste of Mana(or whatever you use), most likely a last ditch effort, use em to screen an agent's escape or something.  If they have no experience in fighting during their life, their afterlife will be the same. 
A random dead peasant isn't miraculously going to get a sword or even armor out of nowhere either.  Maybe they can come with a pitchfork or some other improvised weapon.  (Add in the restriction that undead troops cannot get better/gain experience.)
Nor can the undead be easily fixed.  Broken bones are broken bones, patching that together is basically life magic, most likely an affront to Death.  So even if you do try to fix the dead, you and yours won't be proficient at it...  Goes with the idea that blunt weapons are indeed, super effective against the undead, break their bones and they won't come back up. 
Otherwise, it is pretty much generic snowballing of an ever big horde of undead that only ever fights enemies weaker then itself and comes out even stronger each time as it both 'heals' its own and recruits the recently dead fighters, till it hits the tipping point.  Well, that'll still happen, but it slows it down significantly...

Meh, Necromancer/Underworld Death isn't really interesting as Farmer Death and Back-to-Nature Death.

I don't think you will be disappointed with our Lord of Death, he isn't as one-note as this dialogue may lead you to believe.  He has the most unique "imbues", being able to turn any Agent into the undead - and his coupled contagion abilities force the world to take drastic measure to counteract it.  Don't think of him as a necromancer - he is negation of life, entropy, and his own death would be the ultimate fulfillment of his desires.

That being said, a lot of the concepts being discussed here, especially seeing Death as an aspect of Life, are either rolled into Rival Old Ones or are part of our cut Old Ones that may or may not be added later in the game.  We do plan to allow a community vote on one of the cut Old Ones if we reach a certain new stretch goal (I think we have a quick update we'll be posting on that tonight). 
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ventuswings

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #773 on: October 13, 2014, 05:20:37 pm »

Could you give us projections on when the dev logs will be uploaded? Assuming they are already completed in advance and is just waiting for uploading at appropriate time.
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KingDinosaurGames

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #774 on: October 13, 2014, 06:00:40 pm »

Could you give us projections on when the dev logs will be uploaded? Assuming they are already completed in advance and is just waiting for uploading at appropriate time.

We actually go back and modify them quite a bit based on feedback and new questions received - we're being very... conservative with videos now because the last two videos that went up we saw a not insignificant amount of de-pledging.  I'm guessing it has to do with the fact that we're showing off some very raw assets, especially considering updates without videos see no de-pledging - so people aren't taking the time to read that these are still alpha/beta assets and NOT the new updated graphics.  We are definitely posting Parts 2 and 3 this week, but we may just post the other Dev Logs onto youtube (with links here), I think they are mostly for the forum audiences as you guys are the people most interested in reviewing mechanics.
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nenjin

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #775 on: October 13, 2014, 06:08:58 pm »

Ach, that's brutal. De-pledging? I may want better graphics but they're not a requirement of me liking the game.

Maybe they saw the anime placeholders and had the same reaction I did.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

KingDinosaurGames

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #776 on: October 13, 2014, 06:11:36 pm »

Ach, that's brutal. De-pledging? I may want better graphics but they're not a requirement of me liking the game.

Maybe they saw the anime placeholders and had the same reaction I did.

Yeah, it's been a point of confusion for us - the first time we assumed it was just an aberration but then the second time (and with other updates) it was a pretty clear correlation.  I'm the kind of person that wants to be fully transparent and just stream everything I do, but if my mumbling over alpha assets is going to cost us a stretch goal I'd rather not. 

However, once the KS is over we intend to stick to at the minimum a 15 minute dev log a week (barring the Holidays)
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rylen

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #777 on: October 13, 2014, 06:18:45 pm »

Depending on how shambling the undead are, some might not want to stick with the Old One and its necromancers. Any chance of undead refugees? A bit like Fallout's ghouls or Diskworld's Reg Shoe and his cohort. It strikes me as one more interesting thing for the various nations to deal with an an interesting angle for the player to mess with.

De-pledging? I'd been anxious for the next dev log but I fully understand the delay.
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nenjin

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #778 on: October 13, 2014, 06:25:08 pm »

It's interesting in that I've never heard a dev mention it, and we've had quite a few here by now talking as they progress through their Kickstarter. I'm sure it's a case of "best foot forward" and all that, but still. That's a under-discussed datapoint in Kickstarters I'd be interested to see more about. You can only make correlations as there's not rigorous detail in the data about why they do it....but it'd still be interesting to know more about what makes people change their mind on a pledge. I've always thought of most KS backers as "True Believers", in that once they give their money, they're committed. I guess that's not really the case (especially if you're part of the "Kickstarter as a pre-order system" camp.)
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

KingDinosaurGames

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarting!
« Reply #779 on: October 13, 2014, 06:37:38 pm »

Depending on how shambling the undead are, some might not want to stick with the Old One and its necromancers. Any chance of undead refugees? A bit like Fallout's ghouls or Diskworld's Reg Shoe and his cohort. It strikes me as one more interesting thing for the various nations to deal with an an interesting angle for the player to mess with.

De-pledging? I'd been anxious for the next dev log but I fully understand the delay.

Absolutely - we have a very interesting method for handling the "righteous undead".  They can go as far as founding a government and joining the Alliance to defeat you, best that you keep them firmly in hand.

It's interesting in that I've never heard a dev mention it, and we've had quite a few here by now talking as they progress through their Kickstarter. I'm sure it's a case of "best foot forward" and all that, but still. That's a under-discussed datapoint in Kickstarters I'd be interested to see more about. You can only make correlations as there's not rigorous detail in the data about why they do it....but it'd still be interesting to know more about what makes people change their mind on a pledge. I've always thought of most KS backers as "True Believers", in that once they give their money, they're committed. I guess that's not really the case (especially if you're part of the "Kickstarter as a pre-order system" camp.)

In private conversation other devs have talked about it with us, but I notice it is conspicuously absent from any postmortems (with a few exceptions).  We're going to try and write up a brutally honest postmortem at the end of this.
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