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7 (41.2%)

Nooooooooooo!

10 (58.8%)

Total Members Voted: 17

[hector13]

Posting in OOC because of potential clutter in IC.

I think we do need to have clearer rules on vetoes from here on out, if only for KJP's sanity. I don't want him to abandon the game because every proposal has a 3 vetoed vetoes that need accounting for, because vetoes as they currently exist really are annoying.

A veto is supposed to be a very powerful political tool to protect the status quo, so I think we should implement Essence costs for someone to veto a proposal, and only the proposal can be vetoed, so no more pyramid vetoes... because that's pointless.

The other thing about vetoes is that there are a couple of different models we can use. In the UN, any permanent member of the Security Council can veto any resolution, so if we adopt this one, anyone can veto anything, but perhaps it should favour the 'older' characters who have more Essence? In this case the Essence cost would be a specific number, such as 10, 20 or so on.

In the US, the president has power of veto over any proposal that is presented to them, except in the case that a 2/3 majority in both houses of Congress override it. In this instance, I think the Essence cost should be a percentage of the character's total Essence pool (I was thinking 50% to represent the power of the tool) to make it fair on everyone. However, if the proposal receives enough support, then the veto is overridden.

If more than one character is vetoing something though, I think the costs can be shared amongst them, rather than them all paying the same cost. Thoughts on this?

Further, different types of vetoes we might consider:

Amendatory veto
    Allows a god to amend proposals that have been... proposed. I think we already have this for free though, so perhaps not this one.
Line item veto
    Allows a god to remove certain sections of a proposal they don't agree with, leaving the rest intact.
Cost veto
    Allows a god to increase the Essence cost of a proposal.
Package veto
    Allows a god to veto the entire proposal. Basically the two big examples I have up there.

These run the risk of the game becoming a bit more political than it necessarily should be though, so perhaps just a general overall veto with significant cost, and if you don't agree with a proposal you either vote against it or ask for it to be changed.

I personally favour the type of veto the US president has, with the percentage-based cost.

[IcyTea31]

By the way, originally, a veto only blocked actions without a proposal. It symbolized the god simply undoing (or trying to) everything the other god tried to do (or was doing). Why not go back to that? Only veto non-Council actions, costs the same as the action would have costed.

[Rolepgeek]

I honestly think vetoing is rather unnecessary and rather a dick move. 'Prevent action' fulfills the same purpose, but it's not really meant to be efficient because the only time you should have to use it is when someone does something like 'kill all of X's followers' which they would almost always do in secret anyway. It's just a cop-out way of trying to fuck with people.

[Stirk]

I think we do need to have clearer rules on vetoes from here on out, if only for KJP's sanity. I don't want him to abandon the game because every proposal has a 3 vetoed vetoes that need accounting for, because vetoes as they currently exist really are annoying.

That isn't how vetoing works. Basically, vetoing a proposal would be the same as "Opposing" it. Unless you are willing to pay to make it not happen, which isn't really veto and more of "Undoing".

Has anyone ever done what you think they did? Basically, vetoes here aren't political things, they are an order to stop non-political things. Effectively opposing non-proposals.

By the way, originally, a veto only blocked actions without a proposal. It symbolized the god simply undoing (or trying to) everything the other god tried to do (or was doing). Why not go back to that? Only veto non-Council actions, costs the same as the action would have costed.

Isn't that what it already is ? As far as I remember, "Vetoing" basically started when I yelled veto repeatidly to the "random" god causing pointless mass destruction.

That model is really, really, really flawed. Ex:
Fusil: SPEND 20 ESSENCE TO KILL SOME OF CIM'S FOLLOWERS!
Cim: What? I won't let you do that! Veto!
KJP: Cim (-20E)
Fusil: SPEND 20 ESSENCE TO KILL CIM'S FOLLOWRS!
Cim:VETO THIS MADMAN!
KJP: Cim (-20E)

And repeat forever.

[IcyTea31]

Isn't that what it already is ? As far as I remember, "Vetoing" basically started when I yelled veto repeatidly to the "random" god causing pointless mass destruction.

That model is really, really, really flawed. Ex:
Fusil: SPEND 20 ESSENCE TO KILL SOME OF CIM'S FOLLOWERS!
Cim: What? I won't let you do that! Veto!
KJP: Cim (-20E)
Fusil: SPEND 20 ESSENCE TO KILL CIM'S FOLLOWRS!
Cim:VETO THIS MADMAN!
KJP: Cim (-20E)

And repeat forever.

Yep, that's how it started. And you misunderstood my OOC-proposed system. The original actor would also pay Essence, of course. The system you describe would indeed be very, very flawed.

[gman8181]

I don't particularly care for vetoing either. As was pointed out, it just makes people more likely to do things privately more often.

I'd rather we all just destroy things we dislike after they are made or instead of vetoing actions, make our own actions to reduce the impact of other actions.

Examples:

God 1 creates a death weapon. Instead of vetoing, God 2 later destroys the death weapon by throwing a meteor at it.

God 1 causes an earth quake. God 2 creates a special stabilizing field around all major cities which protects most mortals from the effects.

That to me is far more interesting and involved than the veto system.

[Stirk]

Completely unrelated price check time!
$$$

How much to propagate the Hovori to 3mil under the new system?

[hector13]

Fair point with the veto stuff, but throwing them about like they're candy is really annoying, for both KJP who has to address them, and at least me as a player who just doesn't want to read a pyramid of everyone vetoing everyone else's veto.

I'd like at least some rules on it, so we don't get what happened last night. However amusing it was...

It should cost something to offer a veto instead of opposing something (for free) just so we don't get pages and pages of

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[Stirk]

Fair point with the veto stuff, but throwing them about like they're candy is really annoying, for both KJP who has to address them, and at least me as a player who just doesn't want to read a pyramid of everyone vetoing everyone else's veto.

I'd like at least some rules on it, so we don't get what happened last night. However amusing it was...

It should cost something to offer a veto instead of opposing something (for free) just so we don't get pages and pages of

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I am fairly sure you can not veto a veto and we where just being silly.

[hector13]

Well you never know. If someone was willing enough to essentially pay double for what they want, they might

You're right though; silly it would be.

[Andres]

-snip-

[Rolepgeek]

(Malakath: -9E)
(This was a very merciful make-it-cheaper opposition overriding cost. Appeals to reduce it further aren't likely to be accepted despite the general irrelevance of this whole subsubplot.)
Shinjo: "What pleasant entertainment. You two argue like an old married couple. Why don't you go bother each other instead?"
Random Warrior: "Also, no one I know with Soul Weapons can have any romance with them[1]. No deal."

It cost me 2E to force all four of my constellations into existence and if I remember correctly having gods support my constellations didn't give me a discount. (I tried to find the price check but I failed.) Also, I didn't say I wanted to put Essence into blocking Fusil's vision. That was just a veto.

Remember when I said "The price system got revamped, that's why it cost more?"

This is what i was referring to.

[Andres]

I edited that post out a mere 6 seconds before you posted yours.

[Vgray]

Hey GM, am I seriously over thinking things, or, would Darruths proposal allow someone to say, destroy the worlds, without anyone being able to stop them? I mostly thinking of the original use/definition Vetos, which was, as I recall, something like, 'Varee wants to rain down meteors on the mortals, sane Council members Veto action'.

[gman8181]

If someone wanted to destroy the world, they would almost definitely do it in private which makes the whole "veto" issue pointless anyway.

Again, my issue isn't the concept of vetoing but the way it's carried out. I dislike people just saying "veto" instead of thinking up actual actions to take that would prevent other actions as per my examples given before.