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[FallacyofUrist]

"The rabbit eats the undergrowth that hides other species from the wolf, ergo making it easier for the wolf to hunt."

"... no. Just no. Wolves are larger than rabbits. What rabbits eat doesn't hide anything worth eating from the wolf."

[Rolepgeek]

"If they were consuming foliage that quickly...there would be enough rabbits that the wolf...would be well off enough for eating anyway...regardless...while manipulation is possible...it would be opposed by Iliseth...and likely opposed by the victors themselves...should they learn of it...and now, it is likely they will, given the gods' tendency to coddle their followers..."

[micelus]

"The rabbit eats the undergrowth that hides other species from the wolf, ergo making it easier for the wolf to hunt."

"... no. Just no. Wolves are larger than rabbits. What rabbits eat doesn't hide anything worth eating from the wolf."

"You do not think a weer would hide in a bush?"

((weer= wolfish deers))

"If they were consuming foliage that quickly...there would be enough rabbits that the wolf...would be well off enough for eating anyway...regardless...while manipulation is possible...it would be opposed by Iliseth...and likely opposed by the victors themselves...should they learn of it...and now, it is likely they will, given the gods' tendency to coddle their followers..."

"Perhaps it is best I be blunt; the blessings would be forced upon them and by their actions, they would serve me. Iliseth may intefere yes, but such is life; a series of Conflicts without end."

[FallacyofUrist]

"A bush? Probably not. Thick, tall grass would work better."

((Now playing: spot the fallacy!))

[Rolepgeek]

"...so you speak of slavery, then...?...an unwilling mind is of little aid, Mavnon...especially one aided by a god..."

[FArgHalfnr]

((must've missed that one))



"Lithus, I have no quarrel with any singular race. That is very much beneath my and as such, I do not seek to impose punishment on them. The nation-state is an entity non-identical to the species and as such, I have no desire to unleash the Clan on non-combatants. Also, if I had truly sent the New Kingdom against the Aag, why have my creations and their allies not conquered the Aag yet? True, the Aag are formidable and their homeland is a difficult land to conquer, but the pressure of war from  Clan Rilem, Great Tribe, Orcs and New Kingdom would unquestionably be enough to defeat the Aag defenders. No offense to those who are reading this, but even you must admit you could never hope to defeat such a force at the time of this speech. You saw what my Clan did to the minor human tribal entities. The strong defeated the weak. The Aag, though strong, are outnumbered by similarly strong forces."

"Now about war once more. I believe I understand the main contention here; you think the lives of mortals are precious, yes? I do not. Yes, to a mortal their temporary existence is important. They live lives full of emotion, ease, hardship and an innumerable other things....but they end all the same. And at that end is an Afterlife, an Afterlife created by a myriad of gods to cater to mortal souls. These afterlives, more often than not, are permanent, unchanging and full of happiness. As mortal life is ultimately temporary, I do believe that ending them and allowing their souls to enter the Heavens is not a 'waste', simply a consequence of some actions. You will not agree with me, I know, but that is how I see things."

"As for your suggestion about enclosed warfare...that to me seems pointless. There is no gain, no anxiety, no motivation to change. Yes, the combatants would have prestige, glory and perhaps even wealth, but there is only desire, no need. That kind of Conflict is...artificial, fake and pointless, only a step above the Chaos that I oppose. True, friendly competition can too lead to goodness, but hostile combat is also needed."

Mavnon smiled.

"I don't believe I can convince you that I do not control the New Kingdom but consider this; the flow of essence from my being has only been directed to the Orcs and Dwarves in recent centuries. You can see this for yourself in that Library one of our brethren created. If that is not proof enough, then suffice to say I would have to actually go to war simply because you seem to be engendered to the idea that we are already at war."

"And as interesting as creating two contrasting civilisations is, I do not have the time for such diversions as of late. My current experiments are of far too much importance."

"Mmmm...Mavnon...I believe you might overestimate...the desire of the defenders...to pay deference to you...should they succeed against the armies you have sent against them...but I wanted to say, Liuthus...that he has a point...necessity is the mother of invention...and war breeds necessity...it also uses up resources...able to be otherwise used to Grow...but nonetheless..."

"Perhaps. But tell me, would a mortal refuse a boon, a reward for what they did? Could they? One needs not love his king to serve him, after all."

I did not imply that you were performing any kind of discrimination. My accusation is one of hypocrisy and manipulation towards my people.

You see life as worthless? No amount of argumentation will ever bring me close to understand how one could genuinely believe this, let alone let me be in accord with it. Our views are forever irreconcilable, never we will be able to live in perfect harmony. The best that could be achieved is mutual isolation.

Worthless? Meaningless? How can someone with such a view on mortal could ever hope to be genuinely worshiped? HAVE YOUR WORSHIPERS NO SENSE OF LOGIC? ARE YOU LYING TO THEM?

PATHETIC... HOW CAN ONE CREATE COMPLEX, INTELLIGENT LIFE, AND FEEL NOTHING BUT DISDAIN TOWARDS THEM?? OH RIGHT, YOU DID NOT CREATE ANYTHING, YOU ONLY MUTATED AN ALREADY EXISTING SPECIES TO SERVE YOUR TWISTED GOALS. NEVER IN YOUR EXISTENCE DID YOU DO ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE...

THE ONLY THING THAT MAKE US DIFFERENT FROM MORTALS IS THE AMOUNT OF POWER WE WIELD. THE ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION IS THAT YOU FEEL THE SAME TOWARDS US? ONLY A PSYCHOPATH CAN REASON LIKE THIS, ARE YOU A PSYCHOPATH, GOD OF DISDAIN AND BLOODBATHS?

DISGUSTING... PATHETIC... HOW CAN SUCH A VILE BEING EXIST? IS REALITY FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG? HOW ELSE COULD SUCH A THING EXIST, AND EVEN PROSPER???

MORTAL LIFE IS WORTH PROTECTING, HELPING AND CARING FOR. THEY BRING US THE CONSTANT GIFT OF WORSHIP. WASTING THEIR EXISTENCE FOR PATHETIC POWER GRABS IS AN INSULT TO ALL THAT EXISTS. EXISTENCE IS INSULTED BY YOUR MERE PRESENCE!

As Luthus, take the appearance of a black granite titan, a being five time the size of a Saag, with a face similar to Luthus' helmet, along with it's horns. Appear in this form in the largest battlefield between Aag and new kingdom. Summon a massive stone club, crush the enemy troops with it, leave no survivor. Scream this, loud enough to be heard from anywhere within range to see the titan, without harming or deafening anyone:

I SHALL NO LONGER LET MY PEOPLE BE SLAUGHTERED BY YOU PATHETIC, BLOODTHIRSTY PSYCHOPATH! NONE OF THOSE WHO WANT TO SPREAD SUFFERING AND DESTRUCTION FOR THEIR OWN SAKE SHALL BE SPARED! SUPPORTERS OF MAVNON, KNOW THAT YOUR PATRON IS ONLY CAPABLE OF FEELING DISDAIN TOWARDS YOU. REPENT OR DROWN IN THE BLOOD OF YOUR VICTIMS!

[micelus]

"A bush? Probably not. Thick, tall grass would work better."

((Now playing: spot the fallacy!))

((ehh close enough; will respond to others soon))

"...so you speak of slavery, then...?...an unwilling mind is of little aid, Mavnon...especially one aided by a god..."

"No, not exactly. Let me give an example. Say the humans won. I give the most heroic a boon; increased strength and such and such. They will of course continue their hate for me and the Clan. If they were to act and attempt to free more of their brethren, they would have to become yet stronger, innovating either in stratagem or technology. Ergo, they would fight me but at the same time serve me."

I did not imply that you were performing any kind of discrimination. My accusation is one of hypocrisy and manipulation towards my people.

You see life as worthless? No amount of argumentation will ever bring me close to understand how one could genuinely believe this, let alone let me be in accord with it. Our views are forever irreconcilable, never we will be able to live in perfect harmony. The best that could be achieved is mutual isolation.

Worthless? Meaningless? How can someone with such a view on mortal could ever hope to be genuinely worshiped? HAVE YOUR WORSHIPERS NO SENSE OF LOGIC? ARE YOU LYING TO THEM?

PATHETIC... HOW CAN ONE CREATE COMPLEX, INTELLIGENT LIFE, AND FEEL NOTHING BUT DISDAIN TOWARDS THEM?? OH RIGHT, YOU DID NOT CREATE ANYTHING, YOU ONLY MUTATED AN ALREADY EXISTING SPECIES TO SERVE YOUR TWISTED GOALS. NEVER IN YOUR EXISTENCE DID YOU DO ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE...

THE ONLY THING THAT MAKE US DIFFERENT FROM MORTALS IS THE AMOUNT OF POWER WE WIELD. THE ONLY LOGICAL CONCLUSION IS THAT YOU FEEL THE SAME TOWARDS US? ONLY A PSYCHOPATH CAN REASON LIKE THIS, ARE YOU A PSYCHOPATH, GOD OF DISDAIN AND BLOODBATHS?

DISGUSTING... PATHETIC... HOW CAN SUCH A VILE BEING EXIST? IS REALITY FUNDAMENTALLY WRONG? HOW ELSE COULD SUCH A THING EXIST, AND EVEN PROSPER???

MORTAL LIFE IS WORTH PROTECTING, HELPING AND CARING FOR. THEY BRING US THE CONSTANT GIFT OF WORSHIP. WASTING THEIR EXISTENCE FOR PATHETIC POWER GRABS IS AN INSULT TO ALL THAT EXISTS. EXISTENCE IS INSULTED BY YOUR MERE PRESENCE!

As Luthus, take the appearance of a black granite titan, a being five time the size of a Saag, with a face similar to Luthus' helmet, along with it's horns. Appear in this form in the largest battlefield between Aag and new kingdom. Summon a massive stone club, crush the enemy troops with it, leave no survivor. Scream this, loud enough to be heard from anywhere within range to see the titan:

I SHALL NO LONGER LET MY PEOPLE BE SLAUGHTERED BY YOU PATHETIC, BLOODTHIRSTY PSYCHOPATH! NONE OF THOSE WHO WANT TO SPREAD SUFFERING AND DESTRUCTION FOR THEIR OWN SAKE SHALL BE SPARED! SUPPORTERS OF MAVNON, KNOW THAT YOUR PATRON IS ONLY CAPABLE OF FEELING DISDAIN TOWARDS YOU. REPENT OR DROWN IN THE BLOOD OF YOUR VICTIMS!

"You certainly are an angry being. I see this debate is over, but I shall answer your points. The mortal soul is extremely important whereas the body is less so. Whatever suffering the body would ever experience is little compared to the immortality of a soul. "

A little bit miffed, Mavnon continued. "As for mutation...really Luthus? Quite low of you. Clan Rilem is every bit as dwarvish as any dwarf. To think otherwise is racism."
"As for your belief on the similarity between mortals and gods...I disagree completely. Mortals cannot create to the same extent as us, nor can we survive without worship or influence. I'm not even sure if we experience any form of Afterlife or just cease to be. It would be difficult to discover in any case..."

"As for 'power grabs'. Luthus, everything we do is a 'power grab'. I could just easily have conducted a 'power grab' through peaceful means. No, war is by which I hope to spread innovation."

"Now those words done with, it seems our debate is over. Good luck with the battle brother."


That done with, Mavnon materialised floating at the middle of the soon-to-be battlfield, attended by her Immortal Guard and several Orc/Rilem scholars. She wished for them to watch personally the battle. She shouted towards the New Kingdom army.

"Luthus over there thinks I lead you. Just so you know."


Watch Luthus fight the New Kingdom army. Have my Immortals (all of them) and Orcish/Rilem scholars watch so that they may learn. If any combatant attempts to attack me or my retainers, teleport them to safety.

[Detoxicated]

"I must repeat myself, God of Conflict, a conflict does not necessesarily have to end in war, you could hone much more intricate conflicts if you wanted to."
Dwell by the battles of this war and listen to prayers of people in despair

[micelus]

"I agree completely. Now tell Luthus that. Or better yet, come watch with me."

[DreamerGhost]

This whole discussion was absurd. Let us look not at what is claimed, but rather at what is happening.

New kingdom (really needs a proper name) is conquering nearby lands, and enforcing a ban on worshiping any god.
Since they claim to not to be ruled by any god and do not target any one god specifically, they are left alone by most gods, since they just file them "Not my business" and focus on their own races and plots.
The activity New kingdom partakes most is war; most of their recourses are geared towards war, which allows them to conquer less warlike nations with ease.

What do we see from this? If we consider that there are more ways for a god to gain power than direct worship, the Godless kingdom is spreading conflict while banning all common worship. The only one who benefits from Godless kingdoms growth is Mavon, trading a bit of worship quality for exclusive influence. It matters not if he is pupeteering the king, the kingdom is Mavons handiwork, built with intention of pushing out other gods from the minds of mortals. It is a good plan since he is going to benefit doubly, no matter our actions. If we stay silent, he benefits from kingdoms existence. If we oppose, he benefits from ensuing conflict.

In short, this was an attempt far larger and far less concealed than Uthers to destroy what we built. I recommend the same treatment.

[FArgHalfnr]

Shout this, this time loud enough to be heard from the entire solar system, without harming or deafening anyone:

WORSHIPERS OF MAVNON, PEOPLE OF THE NEW KINGDOM! YOU ARE ALL FOOLED BY THIS ABOMINATION YOU CALL A GOD, THIS HORRENDOUS BEAST FEEL NOTHING BUT DISDAIN TOWARDS MORTALS, IMMORTALS AND GODS, YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A TOY, A PAWN FOR THIS DEMON, YOUR DEATH, YOUR SUFFERING MEAN NOTHING TO THIS BEAST, IT EVEN ENJOY THE PAIN IT INFLICTS TO ALL OF YOU THROUGH WARFARE AND DESTRUCTION!! NEW KINGDOM! EVEN THOUGH YOU BELIEVE YOU ARE ALL FREE FROM GODS, YOU ARE A PAWN OF MAVNON'S SCHEME OF DESTRUCTION! REALIZE THIS, OR DROWN IN THE BLOOD OF YOUR INNOCENT VICTIMS!!

Continue the destruction of any soldier from the new kingdom not smart enough to flee. Move to the closest battlefield once this one is done and resume the destruction. Do not chase those who run away from my range. Spare those who abandon mavnon or rebel against the new kingdom's false ideal.

As Lithus, help various people from the Aag kingdom to perform menial tasks, without stopping Luthus' rampage at the battlefield. Refuse to speak about Luthus' rampage or anything he says.

[DontBanTheMan]

Shout this, this time loud enough to be heard from the entire solar system, without harming or deafening anyone:

WORSHIPERS OF MAVNON, PEOPLE OF THE NEW KINGDOM! YOU ARE ALL FOOLED BY THIS ABOMINATION YOU CALL A GOD, THIS HORRENDOUS BEAST FEEL NOTHING BUT DISDAIN TOWARDS MORTALS, IMMORTALS AND GODS, YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A TOY, A PAWN FOR THIS DEMON, YOUR DEATH, YOUR SUFFERING MEAN NOTHING TO THIS BEAST, IT EVEN ENJOY THE PAIN IT INFLICTS TO ALL OF YOU THROUGH WARFARE AND DESTRUCTION!! NEW KINGDOM! EVEN THOUGH YOU BELIEVE YOU ARE ALL FREE FROM GODS, YOU ARE A PAWN OF MAVNON'S SCHEME OF DESTRUCTION! REALIZE THIS, OR DROWN IN THE BLOOD OF YOUR INNOCENT VICTIMS!!

Block the sound from all High Church land with up to 2P if it's enough. Otherwise, just focus the blocking on the Aspects and the Great Tribe. Don't want that shit in my lands.

[FArgHalfnr]

Use all of my remaining power to empower my message, allowing it to break through anything that might block it, use any power not needed for this to give it a stronger effect on those who hear it. Use crux if needed to break those barriers.

Edit: cancelled.

[DreamerGhost]

1E+3P: Stir up ciivil right movements in dwarven lands with the goal of eliminating the artificial race barrier between the Clan and Clanless Dwarves. [/b]

Mavon, my actions towards you and yours right now are purely out of worry that you are doing something nasty and my ire towards you would end as soon as the godless kingdom does. If you proceed with this movement of yours, I might take it personaly and do something rash. Would you reconsider?

[FallacyofUrist]

1E+3P: Stir up ciivil right movements in dwarven lands with the goal of eliminating the artificial race barrier between the Clan and Clanless Dwarves. [/b]

Mavon, my actions towards you and yours right now are purely out of eorry that you are doing something nasty and my ire towards you would end as soon as the godless kingdom does. If you proceed with this movement of yours, I might take it personaly and do something rash. Would you reconsider?

"I would like to mention that your "civil rights movements" are not desired by me. Clan dwarves and the first ones are different species. Nothing you can do can change that- oh wait."