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[Strongpoint]

I'm not erasing anyone, just merely pointing out some absurdities involved with using such a charged slogan for the supposed purpose of peace.

Loud Whispers posted a video with Jews who are clearly in the "Israel should not exist" camp. They use even more direct language than "from the river to the sea", like one guy holds - "Torah demands all Palestine be returned to Palestinian sovereignty" with a map of all Israel in Palestinian flag. This is not a call for peace. Those people literally believe that god wants Israel to not exist and their holy duty to help with that task.

The other bunch of protestors, Jewish Socialist Group are actually protesting for peace, they have actual pacifist symbolism with some Jewish and Palestinian symbols thrown in. They look and act exactly how I expect pro-peace protestors to look. They don't chant "free, free Palestine" or "from the river to the sea" or the dreaded "globalize the intifada". I also would love to know if this small protest merged with the larger crowd or if they stayed separate. I suspect the later.

Also, I don't understand why the video is called "A group of Jews joined a demonstration in support of Palestine in the UK, demanding a "ceasefire""  when they are definitely two distinct groups of jews and only one of them was saying anything about ceasefire.  And the second video looks like a small separate protest. 

[Loud Whispers]

>Don't claim to speak for all Jewish people
>Immediately starts speaking on behalf of all Jewish people and calling all the rest radicals and extremists because "I don't like their politics"

I'm not erasing anyone, just merely pointing out some absurdities involved with using such a charged slogan for the supposed purpose of peace.

A lot of these people in these protests are friends with someone whose family members are currently being killed so I don't imagine they're going to bend over when the people they're protesting against want to regulate what they're allowed to say or not say. Especially as something as fucking tame as "be free but we said be free = genocide so you support genocide now"

We're not going to build our settlements on the rubble of your house oops we did it again but we won't do it this time oops we did it again on and on ad infinitum

But don't you use a slogan about freedom because that could insinuate ethnic cleansing also just look the other way whilst we plan ethnic cleansing cool beans just don't talk about it though because that would hurt our feelings and be emotionally challenging, unlike the ethnic cleansing. I hear that's soothing for the skin or some shit

Israel acknowledged Monday that one of its ministries drafted a wartime proposal to transfer the Gaza Strip’s 2.3 million people to Egypt’s Sinai peninsula, drawing condemnation from the Palestinians and worsening tensions with Cairo.

Actual nazis attacking Jewish protesters = the jewish protestors are fringe and radical, clearly support genocide
Support genocide = yes, clearly the sensible centrist position

By this kind of metric, no one represents anyone. For example, By this metric, I can't say Ukrainians resist Russian invasion because not all actually do. Neither I can say that supporting Russia War Crimes is anti-Ukrainian because some Ukrainians not only support those, they participate in them as willing collaborators.

Only because you run from the position that you can speak on behalf of someone else even when they're telling you they don't support war crimes

If you don't do that, the logic is very simple. When Russia invaded Ukraine, you know how many Russians were on our streets protesting against Russia? How many Russian-speaking Ukrainians whom Putin was "protecting" died fighting against Russia?

I won't say no one represents anyone. But warlords are the least qualified to make that claim

As much as I would love to say - "they are no longer Ukrainians"... it is not exactly how the reality works.

A group says "I don't support this."

You respond "well by that logic you do support this because some of us support this"

People are unique. Even in any given group there is a plurality of opinions. That's why it's so full of shit when a politician claims they can devastate a nation in the name of any nation

Like fuck. Hector posts this poll refuting your claims that Gazans are just born from the womb as genocidal murderers. His poll shows something pretty obvious to anyone with eyes; they're a people who have suffered nothing but loss, siege and displacement again and again. And even after all is said and done, what they want most of all is to live. That most basic essential desire humans have, to live free from fear and suffering. And whilst Israel's defence minister calls them animals and its government makes plans to cleanse them from what little land they have left so they can re-enact the Imperialism of the 19th century every day for the next one hundred years, the death toll climbs higher, more people lose their homes and their loved ones, and all for what? Another military victory that guarantees decades of endless conflict and death. The palestinian people have no ability to fight. The ability to end this war lies entirely in Israel's hands. Not just the military operation, but the cycle of oppression, annexation and reprisal.

Okay, you kill Hamas. What next? What of the millions of survivors who lost everything to the Israeli military?

And who fills the power vacuum?

What happens next?

What happens when the Israeli government props up another terrorist group in Gaza to terrorise the Palestinians and bomb the Israeli people, just like it did with Hamas? Will anyone hold Netanyahu accountable for supporting Hamas whilst wasting all of Mossad's intelligence resources on protecting West Bank settlers defending Israel's right to burn down your neighbour's olive groves? Are those olive groves hamas HQ too?

People just got tired of the bullshit and the obvious lies. When I went to school, we had people from everywhere, man. Some of my friends, right? One of them, his grandfather was French. The other's was Algerian. Their grandfathers were not just enemies - they were vicious enemies. And when they saw their grandkids were best friends they broke down in tears and became friends too. We had jewish students too of every stripe; secular, diaspora, sephardi, mizrahi, ashkenazi, jews who observed diligently and jews who ate bacon, and they were all unique people with their own voices and opinions. Real human beans. If you asked them what they thought about this whole shit each of them would have something different to say. And we also had palestinians - who still have, or maybe no longer given recent events, had family in Palestine & Israel. So I'm laughing when I read all this shit about how Palestinians need to be sent to re-education camps or cleansed from the earth like they are some kind of race of rabid zombies; this is just a repeat of the cleaning of native Americans, and how they were portrayed as evolutionary degenerates and scalping barbarians even as they were cleansed from their land.

Cos mans just want the killing to stop. They don't want people to start shit. They want whatever they want; most of all, they want to be heard and seen so no one can get away for talking about them, they're protesting for an equal value of human life
They're protesting to be visible, protesting to stop children dying, to show people love for humanity isn't hatred and Palestinians don't hate them because they're brothers
And ultimately they'll believe everything and anything in between because there was a lot of people from every stripe and walk of life and no one but them speaks on their behalf

Same way the actual nazis being led by Tommy fucking Robinson attacking peace protestors don't represent anyone, even if they claim to represent England, represent Israel or the fucking moon

No wonder Hector just gave up. Because you did some gold olympic level contest of endurance to try and gaslight him into thinking "I want the killing to stop" is a radical position when he was genuinely trying to bridge the gap of understanding

[hector13]

I gave up because of the unabashed hypocrisy really, things like demanding evidence for or against a position that’s then roundly ignored, and being told I’m too cowardly to say I hate Jews by someone apparently too scared to call me an anti-Semite, and now he separates Jews protesting for a ceasefire from Jews as a whole while simultaneously being unable to separate the hatemongers from peace protests.

It took me far too long to accept that arguing with someone so intellectually dishonest was a complete waste of time, but I got there.

[Schmaven]

All I'm saying is you have a group of people who literally told everyone a certain phrase is very offensive to them.  Like on the order of N-word offensive.  So to continue using that same phrase is at best unproductively ignorant, but more likely it seems to be a purposeful sleight at those who already explained why it is problematic.  To keep using it late November 2023 and beyond is just being a troll.  Nothing against trolls, that's just how it's coming across.

Personally, sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me, so I don't have my knickers in a knot about it; but if the goal is for both sides to stop fighting, some respect for the others' sensibilities might be a start.  I'd prefer not to see WWIII, but I concede there are some who hope for armageddon, so it will be interesting to see which direction this all goes.

[Strongpoint]

If you don't do that, the logic is very simple. When Russia invaded Ukraine, you know how many Russians were on our streets protesting against Russia? How many Russian-speaking Ukrainians whom Putin was "protecting" died fighting against Russia?

Yes, I know how many Russians protested. Miniscule amount. Not nearly enough to stop calling a basket of rotten eggs a basket of rotten eggs.

Also, please don't equate Russian-speaking and Russians. Those are different groups. Like you know... English-speaking and Englishmen

There is a key difference in our thinking.  When I evaluate a group, I evaluate a group as a whole. I already made an analogy of a pine forest, I won't start calling it "pine and other trees" forest if there are 5% of other trees.

Again, it all comes to this. I don't care what individuals of some group think when I am evaluating THE GROUP. I see the pro-Trump MAGA crowd is a fascist, religious extremist, racist, homophobic political movement even if not all of Trump supporters are those things. And no, them having Candace Owens in their ranks doesn't mean that "you can't say that black people dislike Trump"

When I evaluate an individual or subgroup of individuals, I will separate them from a group because I am fully aware that a member of a group can be vastly different than an averaged member and prejudice is not a good thing.

And when I say that Ukrainians hate Russians. It means that the group "Ukrainians" hate Russians even if there are, obliviously and evidently, individual Ukrainians who don't.  If you don't make this distinction, it is impossible to evaluate groups at all because there is always "actually, that one weirdo thinks that..."

Okay, you kill Hamas. What next? What of the millions of survivors who lost everything to the Israeli military?

And who fills the power vacuum?

What happens next? 

I don't know, my predictions of the future tend to suck. What will definitely happen if Hamas is destroyed - a violent and evil group with access to the means of killing many people and poisoning the minds of many more, will be unable to continue doing so. It is quite an achievement for humanity.

If South Korea and North Korea were at war, would you also ask "What next?" "What will happen to millions who lost everything to the South Korean Military? "Who will replace Kim?"

I am worried about how the Israeli occupation will look, especially if that disgusting piece of shit Bibi will stay in power. In a perfect world, it is not Israel who should destroy Hamas and occupy post-Hamas Gaza, I would rather see Americans, NATO, Arab coalition, almost anyone, or, you know UN troops. But international institutions don't work for that to happen.


Also, it is irrelevant at this point, Gaza already requires substantial effort to recover. Ceasefire won't fix anything. It will only result in the worst possible outcome - destroyed infrastructure AND HAMAS staying in power.

[Bumber]

Like fuck. Hector posts this poll refuting your claims that Gazans are just born from the womb as genocidal murderers.

Literally what the fuck, LW?

Like, how can anyone assume your arguments about erasing Jewish protesters or anything else is in good faith when you post shit like that? Strongpoint's conflation of anti-Jew and anti-Israeli was one thing, but you're playing in entirely different league here.

[Strongpoint]

Like fuck. Hector posts this poll refuting your claims that Gazans are just born from the womb as genocidal murderers.

Literally what the fuck, LW?

Hey, my position that Gaza is ruled by a hateful totalitarian government that spreads hate through the full control of everything, including the education system, and that it enjoys a very substantial support among the residents of Gaza who are poisoned by hateful ideology is OBVIOUSLY the same as having a disgusting racist belief that Palestinians are genetically predisposed to be murderous animals.

I think that one was meant to be hyperbole but it was definitely not the brightest one.

_________


To the relevant news. After the first successful exchange of "prisoners" yesterday. Today's one is on halt. Reason? HAMAS doesn't like that not all agreed trucks with ransom humanitarian aid passed through in time.

[Starver]

If you don't do that, the logic is very simple. When Russia invaded Ukraine, you know how many Russians were on our streets protesting against Russia? How many Russian-speaking Ukrainians whom Putin was "protecting" died fighting against Russia?

Yes, I know how many Russians protested. Miniscule amount. Not nearly enough to stop calling a basket of rotten eggs a basket of rotten eggs.

Also, please don't equate Russian-speaking and Russians. Those are different groups. Like you know... English-speaking and Englishmen

...forgive me, but I don't see any false-equivalence of "Russian-speaking" and "Russian" here.

"Russian Ukrainians" may be the claim by Putin, but makes no sense in the above context.[2]

Meanwhile actual Russians (lucky or unlucky enough to be here in Britain where the manure struck the wind-machine) were actually protesting against Putin, in civic marches/etc. Or at least demonstrating solidarity with Ukraine. An unknown number might have just been not doing the Canadian Tourist[1] trick of pretending they're of one or other less troublesome Eastern-block heritage, so forced to be hyper-supportive of Ukraine to not be 'cold-shouldered'.

Still, anything short of loudly proclaiming that "Putin Was Right!", would have been a safer situation, over here, than many a passive protest/unsupportive attitude/'anti-Z'ness on Moscow-controlled streets ...from Kasyanov to Jamaladinova to Minayev, and the mystery of Lt-General Sviridov and wife, e.g. Yet pro-Russian calls are basically not there. Not because of laws (note the freedom granted to peacefully counter the government line on Gaza, though I doubt that the Makhachkala Airport troubles were tacitly instigated by the West/Ukraine, whatever the accusations from Russia or Dagestan leaderships...), it can only because of sentiment (or maybe social expediency, if you must employ some cynicism).

Within Russia (or its legally/illegally extended spheres of influence) I don't expect to see much continuing anti-Putinism mostly because that's not a healthy attitude to take, there.


[1] It being not uncommon, during the golden age of backpacker tourism, for certain US gap-year-wanderers to prominantly display a maple-leaf flag on their bags because they'd rather pass themselves off as Canadiaiaians than 'Muricans

[2] Possibly in this one, which I nearly commemted on previously

[Rockeater]

To the relevant news. After the first successful exchange of "prisoners" yesterday. Today's one is on halt. Reason? HAMAS doesn't like that not all agreed trucks with ransom humanitarian aid passed through in time.

Ah, yes, because Gaza is completely fine and doesn't need any help, do you consider anyone living in Gaza human? because you don't seem to consider they have anything in them which isn't evil.

[hector13]

To the relevant news. After the first successful exchange of "prisoners" yesterday. Today's one is on halt. Reason? HAMAS doesn't like that not all agreed trucks with ransom humanitarian aid passed through in time.

Ah, yes, because Gaza is completely fine and doesn't need any help, do you consider anyone living in Gaza human? because you don't seem to consider they have anything in them which isn't evil.

I wonder if Strongpoint genuinely thinks all the Palestinians that have been detained in Israel have all received due process, despite the minister in charge of domestic security services being leader of an anti-Arab party who wants all Arabs not loyal to Israel to be expelled, had a picture of a Jewish terrorist hanging in his home, was convicted of supporting an anti-Arab terrorist group, and was exempted from compulsory service because of his extremist views.

According to the Beeb, less than a quarter have been convicted of the 300 people on the Israeli-approved list for Hamas to choose to release as part of the deal, and 40% are under-18.

Anyway, the situation is resolved, and the releases continue.

[Strongpoint]

To the relevant news. After the first successful exchange of "prisoners" yesterday. Today's one is on halt. Reason? HAMAS doesn't like that not all agreed trucks with ransom humanitarian aid passed through in time.

Ah, yes, because Gaza is completely fine and doesn't need any help, do you consider anyone living in Gaza human? because you don't seem to consider they have anything in them which isn't evil.

WTH? I am disgusted by the process of exchanging hostages for ransom, for supplies necessary for HAMAS to continue the war. Or are you implying that HAMAS actually cares for Gazan civilians getting supplies?

I wonder if Strongpoint genuinely thinks all the Palestinians that have been detained in Israel have all received due process, despite the minister in charge of domestic security services being leader of an anti-Arab party who wants all Arabs not loyal to Israel to be expelled

No. I don't think that Israeli courts, especially ones, operating in the West Bank are a great example of justice. But they are so much better than Palestinian justice that it is hardly a factor that can sway my support from the Israeli side to the Palestinian side.

Also, I have no huge problem calling released Palestinians prisoners of war or even political prisoners. They ARE insurgents resisting occupation. I may dislike the method of attacking absolutely random civilians with a knife, but, in fact, it is a type of armed resistance.

Even if there are doubts about the fairness of all sentences, there are absolutely guaranteed violent terrorists (insurgents, freedom fighters, failed shahids) with public evidence  who are greeted as heroes\innocent victims not only by Palestinians but by pro-peace Westerners, too

What I have a huge problem with is when kidnapped elderly and small children are called prisoners. It is beyond messed up. The word is hostages.

According to the Beeb, less than a quarter have been convicted

  but what were they arrested for is also relevant, no?  Also, if Israeli justice is so unfair... why they failed to convict them? Truly unfair justice is always swift

and 40% are under-18.

More accurately: 40% are of ages 14 to 18 aka violent teenage freedom fighters\terrorists.

[hector13]

What does it matter if justice is fast or slow? They’re still in jail either way, and with fast justice they have an actual time limit they need to stick to. Slow justice is indefinite and uncertain.

I’m not interested in what-aboutism. Hamas being cunts doesn’t excuse Israel being cunts, and vice-versa.

People being happy about violent offenders being released is what-aboutism, too. It doesn’t mean Israel has an excuse for locking up people who are upset about their occupation, nor does it mean people aren’t allowed to get upset about Israel wrongly locking people up without charge or trial.

I’m also not interested in swaying your opinion. You’ve made clear you think “an eye for an eye” is justification enough for anything short of explicit genocide.

https://apnews.com/article/palestinians-israel-prisoner-exchange-hostage-92545883b1fef86fb9b34549b7deca58

Tears fell down his father Khalil Brahma’s cheeks as he brought his son down from his shoulders and looked him in the eye for the first time in seven months. Israeli forces had arrested Jamal at his home in the Palestinian city of Jericho last spring and detained him without charge or trial.

No charges, no trial.

The Israeli government has ordered police to shut down celebrations over the release. Israeli security forces at one point unleashed tear gas canisters on the crowds, sending young men, old women and small children sprinting away as they wept and screamed in pain.

How dare they celebrate the release of friends and family.

The Palestinian detainees freed Friday included 24 women, some of whom had been sentenced to years-long prison terms over attempted stabbings and other attacks on Israeli security forces. Others had been accused of incitement on social media.

Some have actually been convicted of violent crimes.

Others… not so violent.

There were also the 15 male teenagers, most of them charged with stone-throwing and “supporting terrorism,” a broadly defined accusation that underscores Israel’s long-running crackdown on young Palestinian men as violence surges in the occupied territory.

Throwing stones, violent terrorists indeed.

“supporting terrorism” is the kind of nebulous bullshit that allows you to arrest anyone, for anything.

“As a Palestinian, my heart is broken for my brothers in Gaza, so I can’t really celebrate,” said Abdulqader Khatib, a U.N. worker whose 17-year-old son, Iyas, was placed last year in “administrative detention,” without charges or trial and based on secret evidence. “But I am a father. And deep inside, I am very happy.”

No charges or trial on super scary secret evidence. Or possibly it’s secret because it doesn’t exist?

Many prisoners are convicted by military courts, which prosecute Palestinians with a conviction rate of more than 99%. Rights groups say Palestinians are often denied due process and forced into confessions.

99% conviction rate, sounds legit.

On Friday in Beitunia, a lanky and pimpled 16-year-old, Aban Hammad, stood unmoving, looking shaken by the tumult of tears, hugs and pro-Hamas chants around him. It was his first glimpse of the world after a year in prison for throwing stones in the northern town of Qalqilya. He was freed even though he had eight months of his sentence left to serve.

20 months for throwing stones. Proportional, likes, eh.

I used to smash my neighbours’ milk bottles and coal when I was a kid. Proper little terrorist I was, by your definition.

[Strongpoint]

Decided to look back at my posts in the thread. Just to see if I am as evil-sounding as people claim.

- In my first message past Oct 7, which was quite emotionally charged after watching the first brutal videos of the attack AND witnessing the glee of pro-(Palestinians), I called them morons because they are celebrating an event that will bring death and destruction to the region.

- In response to that I got an anti-Israeli attack about how evil Israelis killed all Palestinian journalists and we can't know what Palestinians actually think

- I responded that journalists are not necessary to learn that in the era of internet. That Israel killing journalists doesn't cancel this barbarity. Also, based on my experience with Russians, I mentioned that not everyone called journalist is actually a journalist

- I immediately got a personal attack of "I didn't think you are a such type of person"

- Then I wrote an estimation that hundreds, possibly thousands of Israeli civilians are killed.

- I was challenged on that with the call to wait for official numbers

- then I wrote I quote 'I expect that Israelis will treat it as their 9/11. Any internal voices calling for diplomatic solutions will be silenced for some time. The Gaza Strip will be, at the very least, pounded and blockaded.'

- Then I wrote this bloodthirsty and hateful message Looking at the scale of mobilization of Israel, I expect a huge land invasion in Gaza. Considering that it is a dense urban environment, it will be a bloodbath both for the Israeli army and Palestinian civilians. Horrible...". We can see that I was obliviously looking forward to the deaths of evil Palestinians

- Sadly, expected. Israel will destroy HAMAS this time and they won't care much to limit civilian casualties. There will be a blockade and pounding for some time, then a land operation. -    Hey! Can you imagine! See how I expressed my opinion that Israel is a benevolent power known for limiting civilian casualties

Then I started noticing that the world media is telling bullshit about Israeli actions, that Israel is, actually, accurate and careful in the bombing, that the death toll is low even if you believe Gaza Health Ministry

Also, at some point, I started stating oblivious, that Gaza is actually ruled by very terrible people. In response, there was a bombardment of how Gaza is actually poor-occupied people and more anti-Israel stuff. The cherry on the top was the statement that Gaza is a Bantustan, implying that HAMAS is an Israeli puppet.

And then it went downhill, with more and more people being focused only on one thing - HOW EVIL ISRAEL IS, completely forgetting about the other side.

Then came my turning point, when I couldn't ignore a huge anti-Israel bias of Western Media, when everyone and their mother reported how Israel air strike killed 500 innocents without bothering to wait for any kind of proof. I know how Western Media report the Ukrainian war and it is wastly different.

Then... Then I started looking at the protests closer and I became horrified at how hateful they actually are and expressed my disgust... but no. most of the thread says that those mobs "want peace" and that genocidal slogans are not genocidal slogans.

Then personal attacks started to fly in, I was, more or less, labeled as a Palestinian hater who twists reality and ignores facts just because I don't agree with every take on how evil Israel is, when its actual flaws are exaggerated and misrepresented and less important in the current then you make them look.

___________
Nah, I was fine. Some harsh wording here and there but It wasn't the case of me wanting to say one thing and actually saying another.

And you, guys, really need to look at yourself critically and understand that you have a huge anti-Israel bias and even if Israel is EVIL you are on the side of far more evil guys.

Have fun, I'll restrain myself from commenting on anything but actually important or unexpected events. After all, Israel won't stop, Hamas will be destroyed, Gaza will be occupied (for real, like before 2005) and "pro-peace" protests will achieve absolutely nothing but increase hate levels in their own countries. Oh, and Israel will be demonized here no matter what they do.

[hector13]

jfc guy you accuse me of being black and white and come out with shite like that. Just because I think Israel are being awfully excessive in their attacks doesn’t mean I want Hamas to win, or even think fondly of them. My opinion of Israel is wholly independent of my opinion of Hamas.

The Palestinian civvies are who I care about, and they’re fucked no matter who wins. Israel can’t destroy Hamas, certainly not through violence, and Israel isn’t ever going to get destroyed by Hamas.

Hamas and the likes of Netanyahu need each other, a convenient boogeyman that they each prop up, intentionally or otherwise, to stay in power. If they both disappeared, the world would be a much better and, more importantly, safer place.

[scriver]

Do you think throwing stones isn't violence, hector? Or is the incitement to violence you don't think is violent? It's hard to tell which it points to.