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[smjjames]

And Theresa May slashing 20,000 police jobs while being the Home Secretary likely didn't help things either.

One COULD resort to using AI, but who's going to trust the AI when it's going to be as biased as us humans. Yes, AIs have biases because the humans writing them have biases, even if they're subtle ones they aren't actively being aware of.

[Sheb]

Well, I'm not sure how many people are on a watchlist of some kind in the UK. I think in Belgium the number is a few hundreds, but that's still taxing our intelligence service. But yeah, that's why trying to bring downt he number of false positive is needed, and why adding everyone that said anything on twitter on the watchlist is counter-productive.

[smjjames]

Well, I'm not sure how many people are on a watchlist of some kind in the UK. I think in Belgium the number is a few hundreds, but that's still taxing our intelligence service. But yeah, that's why trying to bring downt he number of false positive is needed, and why adding everyone that said anything on twitter on the watchlist is counter-productive.

Belgium is TINY though, but yeah, I can see a few hundred being taxing for a country as small as that.

[Sheb]

The thing is that watching someone 24/24 requires maybe 10 agents per suspect.

[Starver]

I based my own figure (six people per shift, not counting HQ support staff to coordinate at various levels) on something Dame Stella Rimmington said. And she should be a reliable source, and a careful one.

[martinuzz]

The thing is that watching someone 24/24 requires maybe 10 agents per suspect.

Indeed, I heard the estimate was even 20 people per 24/7 watchlist suspect. Combine that with the fact that there are currently about 30k people on the UK watchlist, and you'll see that keeping track of everyone on the watchlist is just not possible. Unless you want to get rid of your healthcare, or maybe your education, or the army, so you can fund an extra 600 thousand police officers.

[Silverthrone]

Well, quite. On second thought, I has misjudged the amount of manpower that such a scheme would require. Perhaps more direct attention ought to be given to those already on the surveillance lists. Such things are of no use what so ever if nothing is done.
Perhaps a wiser thing to do, something more carefully targeted, is to afford greater attention to their personal networks. Particularly those who know, but says nothing. Creating an atmosphere where it is both frightening and rather dangerous to be associated with radical Islamism. Of course, then follows the question if security by fear is worthy of a modern democracy, which I cannot answer. I suppose that the very foundation of the question is that they and their associates cannot go safe, unthreatened and unmolested year after year.

I must confess, the main reason why I am proposing an attitude registration is that I believe it ought to cost something to openly be a traitor, to openly support the crimes that the IS embodies. It ought to be a stain on one's character. But if a thing is too costly and labour-intensive for too little gain, then it simply is. One can always hope that such an attitude will punish itself one day.

[smjjames]

Well, quite. On second thought, I has misjudged the amount of manpower that such a scheme would require. Perhaps more direct attention ought to be given to those already on the surveillance lists. Such things are of no use what so ever if nothing is done.
Perhaps a wiser thing to do, something more carefully targeted, is to afford greater attention to their personal networks. Particularly those who know, but says nothing. Creating an atmosphere where it is both frightening and rather dangerous to be associated with radical Islamism. Of course, then follows the question if security by fear is worthy of a modern democracy, which I cannot answer. I suppose that the very foundation of the question is that they and their associates cannot go safe, unthreatened and unmolested year after year.

I must confess, the main reason why I am proposing an attitude registration is that I believe it ought to cost something to openly be a traitor, to openly support the crimes that the IS embodies. It ought to be a stain on one's character. But if a thing is too costly and labour-intensive for too little gain, then it simply is. One can always hope that such an attitude will punish itself one day.

How will you separate the real threats from the false flags and those making false accusations in such a system? I'm sure you'd still want to make sure that innocent people don't accidentially get charged with said crimes, lest it spiral out of control a la Salem Witchhunt effect.

Watching out for false flags/false accusations is something you'd have to watch out for in any kind of monitoring or registration system, unless of course you don't care about the false flags (not saying you don't, just that's something that has to be considered).

[Silverthrone]

It would take detective work. However, cutting the wheat from the chaff when it has already been selected to some degree is more worthwhile than my previous suggestion, which was more or less a great, unfocused trawl.
Even a false flag does serve a certain purpose, if resolved correctly. It reveals that the authorities are searching, and are prepared to take such things seriously, while the fact that the case is fairly examined and then dismissed if it is false reveals that due process still applies. Quite invaluable, for building citizenship is very important in matters such as this.

Of course, the reaction should correspond to the degree of the threat. Carrying out an arrest is quite senseless if a rather unnerving telephone call or other contact would do.

[smjjames]

It would take detective work. However, cutting the wheat from the chaff when it has already been selected to some degree is more worthwhile than my previous suggestion, which was more or less a great, unfocused trawl.
Even a false flag does serve a certain purpose, if resolved correctly. It reveals that the authorities are searching, and are prepared to take such things seriously, while the fact that the case is fairly examined and then dismissed if it is false reveals that due process still applies. Quite invaluable, for building citizenship is very important in matters such as this.

Of course, the reaction should correspond to the degree of the threat. Carrying out an arrest is quite senseless if a rather unnerving telephone call or other contact would do.

A rather unnerving phone call or other contact is something I'd expect from The Mob and not The Police. Or perhaps police in some authoritarian country.

[Silverthrone]

Perhaps. But fear is a vital tool. Ideally, respect for oneself and for the fellow man should be enough to keep a man clear of crime. But if that is not enough, fear of imprisonment and punishment will have to serve.
Of course, it should not be carried out for the sake of fear alone. It cannot be the only tool available. The purpose of this fear and disinformation should be to make the alternative, being an upstanding citizen, being British, being part of a functional community, be that much more appealing. That, however, requires that such a community exists, and a possibility for a worthy life while following the rules. That is why a great investment in the civil British society is so dearly necessary. Employment, livable salaries, welfare, functional social service, affordable housing, all of those are more important than ever.

[Sheb]

Given that these are people who plans to die anyway, I'm not sure fear of emprisonment is going to stop them...

[smjjames]

Silverthrone, I've gotta ask you, do you REALLY want to live under an oppressive regeme like that? You talk about using fear, but imagine it being used against you, friends, and relatives, I'm not sure you're imagining that. Also, this kind of thing is exactly what the terrorists want us to succumb to.

As Sheb said, fear doesn't work if they plan on becoming martyrs. Did fear of getting thrown to the lions in the coliseum or getting crucified stop Christianity from being spread through the Roman empire? Nope.

[Silverthrone]

Where they commited from martyrdom from birth? No, that is a wish that they developed. It can be intercepted. Of course, if a man is already commited to his own death in battle, that requires an entirely different response.

Second, I do not think that it qualifies as a repressive regime unless parliament, government and law is greatly changed with it. If we escalate the scenario, stretch it to its very limit, and assume that applied fear in internal security means an automatic, simultaneous change in governance of the nation from democratic to autocratic, then no, I would not like to live in such a regime.

However, if I had been monitored to plot an attack, or being in the perifery of extremists societies meant to achieve political gains through attacks on civilians, or else being willingly associated with terrorism, being contacted and told of the consequences such actions may have further down the line, well. It is not something I consider particularly tyrranic nor unreasonable.

[Sheb]

The thing is, tool created to be used against terrorists will be deployed against other. For exemple, many people implicated in organizind protests against the labour reform law in France were detained under the emergency power granted after the Bataclan.