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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 610751 times)

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7050 on: October 14, 2016, 10:58:59 am »

The issue is whether or not it's ok to do it without consent.

its kind of shocking that this needs to be explained

Folly is the only one that needs to have it explained to :P

Also, surprise surprise /s , Trump's kids share his attitudes towards women: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2016/oct/14/trump-women-sexual-misconduct-election-live?page=with:block-5800ff50e4b047a4eaafc7e2#block-5800ff50e4b047a4eaafc7e2

“If you can’t handle some of the basic stuff that’s become a problem in the workforce today, then you don’t belong in the workforce,” Trump Jr. said. “Like, you should go maybe teach kindergarten. I think it’s a respectable position.”

Sounds like something you might hear in the 50's or earlier.
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nenjin

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7051 on: October 14, 2016, 11:01:23 am »

I really thought we formed a consensus about the whole sexual harassment thing like 15 years ago.
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Folly

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7052 on: October 14, 2016, 11:13:07 am »

I really thought we formed a consensus about the whole sexual harassment thing like 15 years ago.

The only consensus we formed was that activists will continue to their last breath exaggerating every situation they encounter in any way they can think of to justify their continued aggression. These people don't care about women's rights, they are just looking for any excuse to inflate their own egos without any regard for reality or the truth.
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nenjin

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7053 on: October 14, 2016, 11:18:03 am »

I really thought we formed a consensus about the whole sexual harassment thing like 15 years ago.

The only consensus we formed was that activists will continue to their last breath exaggerating every situation they encounter in any way they can think of to justify their continued aggression. These people don't care about women's rights, they are just looking for any excuse to inflate their own egos without any regard for reality or the truth.

Nice boogeyman you've cooked up there, but that has fuck all to do with the real world. In the real world, there are guys like Trump who continue to act like this is 1950. That's real, right in front of you, not some fucking spook story you trot out when you want to shit all over a woman's right to be left the fuck alone unless she chooses otherwise.

That's some amazing logic you've concocted where a woman demanding the right to not be touched or have sexual comments made to her is THEM being aggressive. Maybe set aside the Gloria Steinem hate wank, because you're doing a disservice to every woman who has been sexual harassed, groped or treated like a piece of meat.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 12:28:08 pm by nenjin »
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7054 on: October 14, 2016, 11:26:36 am »

I think the most amazing thing about this latest exchange is that some of it sounds like it could come right out of the mouth of trump. Dunno how I feel about that; normalization of that sort of dialectic is not something I find a cheering thought.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7055 on: October 14, 2016, 11:35:19 am »

Yeah, sounded like he really meant 'them dirty liberals' by 'activists'.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7056 on: October 14, 2016, 11:42:29 am »

It doesn't get much lazier than hand-waving a problem which has remained a persistently endemic experience for millions upon millions of people for generations as all exaggeration.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7057 on: October 14, 2016, 11:44:00 am »

I really thought we formed a consensus about the whole sexual harassment thing like 15 years ago.

The only consensus we formed was that activists will continue to their last breath exaggerating every situation they encounter in any way they can think of to justify their continued aggression. These people don't care about women's rights, they are just looking for any excuse to inflate their own egos without any regard for reality or the truth.

That completely ignores all of the actual women who get harassed on a daily basis. Seeing as I know quite a few who have suffered from being sexually harassed at work, including groping, this isn't just some made up issue exaggerated by some fringe activists. It's real and quite serious. And not at all ok.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7058 on: October 14, 2016, 11:49:27 am »

I really thought we formed a consensus about the whole sexual harassment thing like 15 years ago.

The only consensus we formed was that activists will continue to their last breath exaggerating every situation they encounter in any way they can think of to justify their continued aggression. These people don't care about women's rights, they are just looking for any excuse to inflate their own egos without any regard for reality or the truth.

That completely ignores all of the actual women who get harassed on a daily basis. Seeing as I know quite a few who have suffered from being sexually harassed at work, including groping, this isn't just some made up issue exaggerated by some fringe activists. It's real and quite serious. And not at all ok.

I can only guess that someone who still clings to this view doesn't actually have any women in their own lives that they're close enough to to hear their stories, and is very lucky not to encounter plainly observable cases right in front of them in their own families, workplaces, etc.  It's either that, or their bar for what constitutes seriously inappropriate behavior is set waaaaay too high.
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Descan

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7059 on: October 14, 2016, 11:51:40 am »

honestly, it's so endemic with women that either you literally don't know a single woman, or (much more likely) none of the women in your life trust you enough to tell you about it. because you go "psh it's all made up, it's just a little groping, it's no big deal" :v
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mainiac

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7060 on: October 14, 2016, 11:55:54 am »

Most of the time when someone is described as politically correct they are simply correct.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7061 on: October 14, 2016, 11:59:16 am »

honestly, it's so endemic with women that either you literally don't know a single woman, or (much more likely) none of the women in your life trust you enough to tell you about it. because you go "psh it's all made up, it's just a little groping, it's no big deal" :v

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant to say.  Heck, I've seen men try to pull dismissive stuff like that with outspoken women, and get publicly called out for "And this is why women don't fucking talk to you about anything important to them, and you remain ignorant."

Bay12 is definitely left-leaning, but I think the only thing we truly echo chamber on is LGBTQ and feminist topics.  You'll get punted right out for being on the wrong side of that one.

I like how the focus on Trump's sex scandals began right after I posted this, and the thread has been nothing but demonstrations of this comment ever since :P
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 12:04:07 pm by SalmonGod »
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Max™

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7062 on: October 14, 2016, 12:03:18 pm »

I really thought we formed a consensus about the whole sexual harassment thing like 15 years ago.

The only consensus we formed was that activists will continue to their last breath exaggerating every situation they encounter in any way they can think of to justify their continued aggression. These people don't care about women's rights, they are just looking for any excuse to inflate their own egos without any regard for reality or the truth.
It is difficult to go wrong with the default assumption that everyone has a right to go around without having to constantly say "no, touching me, or grabbing me, or kissing me, or licking me, or biting me, or holding me down, or anything further is not something others should assume is just ok" to everyone they meet.

I'm a guy, I've actually had a--to be fair, rather attractive--female boss grab my obliques and give them a quick squeeze.

It's a weird situation, she has lots of power there, but I've got all the physical power, so it wasn't a matter of "oh god I can't do anything here" I could easily stop her, and she could easily fire me, but it was definitely enlightening as to what it must be like for someone in a situation where they have no control.

Myself, I did build my muscles to be useful and pretty, but even when I was hanging around with my gay roommate for a while I never had someone just do that. Even guys who know exactly what guys like make a point to check and see if it is ok to start anything. I chuckle and thank them for the flattery, note that things downstairs don't work for other guys, that's it generally, though some would ask me to let them know if that changes, but like I said, there are ways to approach someone with CLEAR sexual intentions, communicate those interests, and never cross over the line.

Guy walks up and grabs for my junk I'm going to very nicely catch his wrist and put him on the floor, he says sorry, I'll say sorry, that's it. You actually grab it and I pop you in the nose, you've got nobody to blame for it but yourself.

Having someone then come and start telling me that I overreacted would be pretty fucking awful, and again, no slight intended to the women out there, but I don't think I'm going to lose out on the "intimidating someone in my personal space" game to very many people if I let the rage slip, crazy is scary. I've got power and control and security in these sorts of situations which a young woman dealing with an older male boss probably won't have, and it would still suck to have someone even try to disrespect me and act like they can just do what they want with me. So no, fuck all that bullshit "it's just activists exaggerating shit to be aggressive and fuel their ego" nonsense, trying to argue over a definition or whatever is one thing, but that?

Fuck outta here with that shit dude. Have you been molested or worse, do you have friends or family who have? Do you understand how vile it is to try to spin "he was kissing and grabbing me in private areas" into "activists exaggerating little things" and then act almost outraged about how they "don't care about women's rights" as if you do?
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nenjin

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7063 on: October 14, 2016, 12:09:52 pm »

I had sort of the same experience. I was at a wedding and a friend's wife walk up and grab a big old hand full of my ass while my back was turned. At first I thought it was a male friend horsing around but then I turned around and it was her with a big shit-eating grin on her face. She claimed she thought I was her husband but I know that's pretty much bullshit, we don't look anything alike other than we're both sort of skinny.

She's pretty but that didn't somehow make it ok. It was more "Ok one, you're married, and for two, that's exactly the kind of creepy shit guys get crucified for." I guess there is a group of people in life that seriously think it's ok to act on their impulses and as long as they don't kill anyone, it's ok.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 12:28:47 pm by nenjin »
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Rolan7

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #7064 on: October 14, 2016, 12:16:03 pm »

Shoot, Max, that's a scary situation.  I wouldn't couch it in "Oh but I could physically overpower her", but you do you.

I got buttslapped at a concert once (they ran off giggling) and found it pretty flattering, but how it made me feel doesn't really matter, yeah?  It wasn't okay.  They didn't know I'd like it.  It was sexual harassment and well... demeaning.  What if I'd had a significant other?  Actually no need to list specific problems, it was nonconsensual and sexual harassment.

Of course it's fine that I liked it, though maybe that's a symptom of low self-esteem :P  But that doesn't retroactively make it okay to do.

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