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Author Topic: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0  (Read 103074 times)

Starver

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1785 on: February 10, 2024, 06:19:48 am »

Why were air-forces often eventually made a separate branch[1][2] from the land- and, if applicable[3], water-forces?

No realistic leader has yet created a space-force(!), but it's technically a different theatre of influence. Drone use might initially be easier to keep as subsets of the main services, each handling UAVs, USVs and (perhaps) ULVs directly, but there could be an argument for merging the shared expertise/elements.

(Doesn't stop there being still an Army Air Corps and Fleet Air Arm, in the UK, and I'm not familiar with US structure,save that US Marine Corps has planes, trains boats and automobiles armoured vehicles.)

AI and electronic stuff I'd say is GCHQ/No Such Agency territory, but there'd be collaboration and coordination with other same-nation (or allied) three-'letter' agencies and all around right now (the ability to properly collaborate/coordinate between various arms and agencies is a perceived failing of Russia's efforts). And it'd be no different coordinating hypothetical DroneForce activities with other branches as a proper inter-service coordination of service-specific drones, etc. Maybe better. Not knowing the suggested scope, I'd have personally said advanced militarised AI stuff might be better kept to the Intelligence (and/or Logistics) groupings/off-shoots, but I'd say that there's arguments for (and against) pooling remotely-piloted (even semi-autonomous) vehicles of all types together with strong liasing through to the conventional forces that then rely on them (including cross-medium, as the army can obviously make use of aerial drones and indeed scenarios where all services might use all medium-specific drones are readily apparent).


...well, just saying that wiser men(/women) than I might have good reason for trying to rearrange the umbrellas. Or it could be a Hail Mary, that won't benefit the situation in the short-/medium-term, but unless it turns out that we're best off considering something like Space Marines and Everybody Else Force as the best future optimum split then I think it has wings(/fins/legs/drills/teleporters) as an idea.


[1] Royal Flying Corps + Royal Naval Air Service -> Royal Air Force in 1918
[2] Aeronautical Division, Signal Corps (up to 1914) -> {several intermediate changes, still nominally within US Army} ->  (from 1947 onwards) US Air Force as a 'third service'.

[3] Even landlocked countries find it applicable, as riverine/lacine, or at least a holdover from when they were not landlocked.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1786 on: February 10, 2024, 08:36:56 am »

The thing is that it didn't grow enough to require separation. We have three types of drones currently.

1) Naval ones. Navy is doing more than fine and they have specialists who understand how naval wars work and how to attack ships. Taking drones away from them can't result in anything good.
2) Quadrocopters and FPV drones. Those play the role of infantry support\recon and they need specialized platoons in the land forces, not a separate branch.
3) Unmanned aircrafts. Airforce uses them, tactics of their use aren't that different from regular airstrikes.

I see it as reform for the sake of reform. It is fine to experiment like this in peacetime but during a war it looks like an attempt to fix what is not broken.
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Starver

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1787 on: February 10, 2024, 12:44:37 pm »

It's hard to know what's broken, given anything we (or even you) know to be broken would be known by Russia as well. Perhaps there's actually a great need. (Or perhaps there's a different need, and this is all going to be as accurate a description of what is being set up as Captain Ridley's Shooting Party was to Bletchley Park. But anything I could second-guess, or third-guess, would already by meatband gravy for the people who we don't want to correctly guess, so would those behind any of this foggy war have accounted for that already?)

Some things may need to be tried in warfare. The formation of the SAS/SBS. The development of the tank. As already mentioned, the RFC/RNAS merging to become the RAF. Successful examples, arguably, at least after teething troubles (tanks not really being the initial hit they should have been, and taking time to becomeva military mainstay).

I'm positing options and opinions, here. I'm sat in an armchair, but I'm no general (or admiral, or air chief marshall). There's certainly nuances I don't know, perhaps there are ones that nobody else here does. (In fact, I hope so.)

This doesn't also stop it from being a case of rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic (the John Finnemore take on this, excepting). The future will tell.
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anewaname

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1788 on: February 10, 2024, 03:44:12 pm »

Yeah... they are unlikely to take the drones or drone operators away from the land/sea/air forces. They will probably induct about 15% of the people from each force and built up a core of common knowledge and training, which will be applied back to the specific environments the land/sea/air forces work in.

Doing this in wartime is better than in peacetime, since the unit will be formed with more merit than politics.
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Bumber

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1790 on: February 11, 2024, 12:20:13 am »

I'm sorry, my Ukrainian friends, but Trump works for Putin.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/10/politics/trump-foreign-aid-loan-senate-package/index.html

Expect aid money to be paid back at some point? Working for Putin.

Biden withholding a $1B loan to Ukraine until a prosecutor is fired? _________
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EuchreJack

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1791 on: February 11, 2024, 12:39:12 am »

I'm sorry, my Ukrainian friends, but Trump works for Putin.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/02/10/politics/trump-foreign-aid-loan-senate-package/index.html

Expect aid money to be paid back at some point? Working for Putin.

Biden withholding a $1B loan to Ukraine until a prosecutor is fired? _________
Trumpspeak: Don't do [useless banter that means nothing]
Republican'ts: Yes Sire, we won't do it!

So yes, this helps Putin.

I was unaware of Biden withholding any sort of funding to Ukraine, so please provide a link.

Bumber

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1792 on: February 11, 2024, 12:46:06 am »

So yes, this helps Putin.

How?

I was unaware of Biden withholding any sort of funding to Ukraine, so please provide a link.

https://oversight.house.gov/timeline/ukraine-11/biden-firing-ukraine-prosecutor-clip/

Clip is from January 2018. Threatening to withhold loan happened during Obama admin.

Based on your article, you seem to have an issue with loans (or money with strings attached) to Ukraine in general?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2024, 12:50:35 am by Bumber »
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EuchreJack

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1793 on: February 11, 2024, 12:50:36 am »

So yes, this helps Putin.

How?

I was unaware of Biden withholding any sort of funding to Ukraine, so please provide a link.

https://oversight.house.gov/timeline/ukraine-11/biden-firing-ukraine-prosecutor-clip/

Clip is from January 2018. Threatening to withhold loan happened during Obama admin.

Sir, please take your petty grievances against Biden out of this thread. You are citing an incident in 2018, when Biden was not even President. This war started in 2022.

If Trump wishes to prove me wrong by throwing his weight behind the War in Ukraine, instead of against it, I would be glad to see it.

Bumber

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1794 on: February 11, 2024, 12:51:06 am »

Sir, please take your petty grievances against Biden out of this thread. You are citing an incident in 2018, when Biden was not even President. This war started in 2022.

If Trump wishes to prove me wrong by throwing his weight behind the War in Ukraine, instead of against it, I would be glad to see it.

It describes events from Obama admin.

Crimea amnesia?

Trump's not president now. Take your petty grievances out, then.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2024, 12:54:01 am by Bumber »
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hector13

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1795 on: February 11, 2024, 12:54:09 am »

EJ’s a dyed in the wool Republican, brah.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1796 on: February 11, 2024, 12:55:42 am »

Sir, please take your petty grievances against Biden out of this thread. You are citing an incident in 2018, when Biden was not even President. This war started in 2022.

If Trump wishes to prove me wrong by throwing his weight behind the War in Ukraine, instead of against it, I would be glad to see it.

It describes events from Obama admin.

Crimea amnesia?

Personally, I am more concerned with the ongoing war, and less with the prior war in Crimea. Lying shitbag politicians change their mind and positions.

Currently, as I see it, Biden is For Ukraine, and Trump is Against Ukraine.

If you can show me that their current (2023-2024), publicly stated positions have changed, that would be more relevant to this discussion.

EuchreJack

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1797 on: February 11, 2024, 12:59:32 am »

Take your petty grievances out, then.
Just wanted to acknowledge and apologize for not respecting your very real and very legitimate concerns about Senile Old Biden. But that is not relevant to the discussion of whom supports Ukraine.  I mean, Biden might not know where Ukraine IS, but he has been steered towards liking Ukraine, and that is good for purposes of supporting Ukraine.

Bumber

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1798 on: February 11, 2024, 01:03:06 am »

Currently, as I see it, Biden is For Ukraine, and Trump is Against Ukraine.

Biden is pro-war and Trump is anti-war.

Trump has said he'd end the war in a day (doubtful.) He hasn't stated what the terms for peace would be, but there's no way Ukraine would accept Russia gaining territory. It's possible Russia wouldn't end up paying war damages or facing justice, but there's still a deterrent if they lost so much for nothing.

Letting Ukraine bleed so that Russia can bleed isn't entirely pro-Ukraine.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2024, 01:06:10 am by Bumber »
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EuchreJack

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1799 on: February 11, 2024, 01:07:24 am »

Currently, as I see it, Biden is For Ukraine, and Trump is Against Ukraine.

Biden is pro-war and Trump is anti-war.

Trump has said he'd end the war in a day (doubtful.) He hasn't stated what the terms for peace would be, but there's no way Ukraine would accept Russia gaining territory. It's possible Russia wouldn't end up paying war damages or facing justice, but there's still a deterrent if they lost so much for nothing.

So, to explain the Geopolitical situation as I see it, Russia stole about a third of Ukraine. Peace likely means that Russia gets to keep what they stole, emboldening Russia to invade anyone else that is not in Nato. In addition, once Ukraine joins Nato, they NEVER can get back any of the land that they have lost to Russia.

In addition, letting Russia gain from this invasion emboldens other countries, like China, to snatch up territory.

Ergo, I am Against Peace and Pro War.
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