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Author Topic: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread  (Read 21137 times)

Schmaven

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #555 on: March 26, 2024, 04:32:52 am »

One big takeaway from this thread is that there are very strong views on both sides, and it will be impossible for the two to ever find agreement.  It is an extremely divisive topic.  So, for example, when it comes up in workplace environments, and people start trying to take 1 side or the other - expect unceasing heated debates at a minimum.  And it's probably best to stay out of the fray at the local level of politics and instesd focus on things we actually can make a difference on.  For a local municipality to take either position necessarily alienates and insults those who support the opposite view.  And for what benefit will that have?  Virtue signaling and moral victory points with certain groups?  But at the cost of disharmony and increased anger while alienating others.

It's incredibly helpful to see both opposing views really articulated and expounded.  And there are higher tiers if government where making our concerns known would be beneficial. 

I'm just seeing lately how on the lowest levels of local governing, and in the workplace, it is a counterproductive issue for organizations to take a stand on.

Might there be some common ground that everyone can support, even if it doesn't go far enough for everyone to be 100% satisfied? 

War is evil, and we should prevent war.  Where war has broken out, it would be preferable for a lasting peace to quickly be the end of it and with minimal harm along the way. 

Or are there those who simply prefer there to be war, death, destruction, and suffering for efernity?
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Starver

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #556 on: March 26, 2024, 11:11:04 am »

1) Israel is a democratic, multiethnic, multireligious, almost secular, LGBT-tolerant, West-aligned country with a sizeable opposition that wishes to make the country more liberal, a military ally of the US in the region.
2) Their enemies are fascist militarists, a theocracy with a culture dreaming of genocide, strictly monoethnic, they execute LGBT people on the spot, hate America and "the West" almost as much as Israel, and have no meaningful opposition that is remotely democratic.
I'm not going to deny that (from my natural perspective/world-view) Israel is a diamond in the rough, regionally. As far as my subscribed-to ideas of culture, it is far less 'foreign' in all kinds of ways, but looking not as a local comparison (however well I could do that) and instead being critical in terms of the world that I (we) might know best:

Democratic - There is significant disenfranchisement of non-Jewish inhabitants within Israeli borders.

Multiethnic - By circumstance, with examples of ghettoisation and apartheidism abounding.

Multi-religious - Pretty much as above, by 'necessity', under sufferance. (Also see below.)

Almost secular - When you have people saying "We must do it. It's part of Israel area," he says. "This is the land that God gave us, and you couldn't go to God and tell him, 'OK you gave me, and I gave to other people.' No. I believe in the end we will go back to Gaza.", who are not being quietly ignored by the government (the opposite?), that's making "almost" do a lot of heavy lifting.

LGBT-tolerant - maybe generally amongst the 'secular' bit (pity about the 'almost', then).

West-aligned country - easiest description so far to agree with, but easier yet to say its more like being "the Israel-aligned West".

Sizable opposition - In their coalition-type system, it seems that nationalist/expansionist elements have the hand firmly on the steering wheel. An assessment of their centre parties' supporting positions doesn't exactly put me in paroxisms of pleasure, either. It's not a "sizable opposition" such as I would normally understand and come to expect by UK terms, which is an imperfect frame of reference but the best way I can hope to understand this 'desirable' situation.

Making the country more liberal - (discounting "making it more liberal than its neighbours, as already stated), from what I can see, this is mostly "economic liberalism", and ambivalent (at best) on issues that involve different spheres of liberalism (that are not already subsumed within other arguments, like settler vs. non-settler rights).

A military ally of the US - as with "west-aligned", I'd say it's more driven by the antiparallel relationship. Which is important to it (if it wasn't for US support, I have no doubt that it wouldn't be here today), but not sure quite as much a benefit in return.

I am being critical here in the sense of making a judgement from (best as I can) a disinterested viewpoint having to look at your assertions. I don't think we're in any doubt that a 'critic' from the Arab world would have a number of stronger objections, perhaps prefering illiberalism, definitely not liking the elements of zionism.


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"fascist militarists, a theocracy with a culture dreaming of genocide, strictly monoethnic, they execute LGBT people on the spot, hate America and "the West" almost as much as ["they hate", sic] Israel, and have no meaningful opposition that is remotely democratic"
I'm not going to say that there's not substantial truth in that applying to their regional opponents (neighbours and beyond), albeit that you might tar some undeserving areas of life with an overwide and simplistic brush. I'm not here to categorise the whole of the Middle East, so instead:

Fascist - Israel is leaning heavily right-wing (beyond the US, way beyond the 'dreams' of the current UK government). I would hesitate to say they are fascists, or even significantly fascistic, for several reasons. But others (Western others, for starters) may not, and not have to invent things out of thin air to do so.

Militaristic - Maybe by necessity, but strong-defence tending to (and proving to be cable of) a strong offence tips things over into a valid description of Israel

Theocracy - Cultural/Ethnic Judaism might be the overarching deal (and ideal?), but all it takes is a populist leader who pays heed to the religious elements and... Tell me that is not happening.

"Dreaming of genocide" - Maybe not as in extermination/holocaust (some individuals publically think in that direction, maybe, and it's hard to tell if others are "I won't say it, but..." territory), but definitely creeping in under the 'culturally extinguishing' banner. From the prior linked report:
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"The world is wide," she says. "Africa is big. Canada is big. The world will absorb the people of Gaza. How we do it? We encourage it. Palestinians in Gaza, the good ones, will be enabled. I'm not saying forced, I say enabled because they want to go."

Do we need to go into "strictly monoethnic"? Oh, maybe theyntolerate white Christians, and others who they don't have an immediate dislike of (and maybe not go even further, when 'the current problem' is no longer relevent). But there are people here who are intent on 'encouraging' and 'helping' those who have long roots in the area to simply 'go away' in favour of their own kind of person. Descendents (or maybe not even that, the more recent arrivals) whose roots due to past ethnic 'filtering' (often enforced or 'encouraged') are often far more foreign to the region. (This is not "the state of Israel", here; this is not "every Jew", or necessarily anywhere near a significant fraction, but there are those openly pushing for this and not being knocked back. This goes beyond merely dealing with a bad situation of history having put you in a difficult position, and becomes a matter of 'othering'; of solving your problems by creating a net increase of problem.

The rest of the list I'll skip over (caveats abound... ultraorthodox elements have 'opinions' re: LGBT, and there's always secular bigotry; already said that, for a 'democracy', it's not what I'd accept as a democratic parsdise, and I have an aversion to the popularism that likely supports this situation).


The TL;DR; is that your uniquivocal praise of Israel is missing some detail. I'd say that it's the better (FCVO 'better') situation that many of the comparable ME states, handwaving away the current situation (and skipping over that Beirut was itself, not so long ago, the shining star of liberal paradises on that coast).

What's worse, is that it's almost funny how justifying Israel in this way reflects the way Putin justifies Russia's own 'operation'. Acting like(?) a fascist under the guise of overthrowing (alleged) fascists, an (apparently) illegitimate government of territory which "historically is not a separate" and is only still 'a thing' because of foreign governments propping it up in various ways. (I could go on.)

You know that I'm not pro-Putin. That I'm hopeful of Ukraine prevailling. There are historic elements to it, but recent living memory suggests that Russia is the aggressor.

Looking at this other place I honestly have very little skin in the game in Gaza/West Bank situation, and it was always (well, for as long as I remember) something I really had very little idea about, besides that it was Islamic terrorists who attacked the Israelis at Munich (and then, more subtly and supposedly proportionate, Mossad might have done some similarly oversees retribution). My take-away was that it was perhaps more in favour of the one side than the other, even after I learnt enough to know where Britain and France (and, perhaps ultimately, Germany) set up this fractious scenario. I am still full of goodwill to your average Israeli (the average sits firmly off the arab-israeli demographic, obviously). But that's now like saying that I don't mind the average Russian (so long as they aren't expounding indoctrination).

What a pernicious element of Gaza did was what Putin is variously trying to make people believe Ukraineans were doing/planning to do. They've got their "Gazan sea-front properties" in the form of appropriated Crimean ones, have encouraged resettlement, tolerated the 'locals' perhaps a bit better (mostly "speak Russian, think Russian,cuse Russian currency, get a Russian passport" covers the fine-points, away from the battle-hit areas, letting you continue to vote in Russian-affiliated elections). What Israel is doing is not a million miles away from what Putin claims he has to do. Different levels of truth, but the comparison should be clear. For you to adamantly have entirely the opposite perspectivenon the two scenarios is, of course, your right. But it stands out as notable.

I could disagree with others, and may counter-propose various arguments to them also. I'd definitely raise eyebrows at modern Israel being deemed the sole aggressor, plus expect people like Bumber to be way adrift from me on the political (and social) compass and probably we couldn't agree on very much at all (favourite Babylon 5 character? ;) ). The one or two words I've now devoted to this reply perhaps render this unreadable/unread, but relates to the obvious (to me) contradictions that lead you down this interpretation. I'm not (as a whole) saying you're wrong, but where there's nuance aplenty your definitiveness is saying various arguable things.



...as Schmaven says: strong views. That's because it's a tricky situation.
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Bumber

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #557 on: March 26, 2024, 02:48:42 pm »

Whataboutism.

And already allowed for in the very next sentence that you cut off, even if I hadn't actually considered this point would even be raised:
If they haven't always been, this is a failing of those charged to uphold and comply with the Convention, not any wishy-washiness of its own.

It's not like due process hasn't been attempted for (some) Russian war crimes.


...not that I imagine you're satisfied with any of that.

What good is any of that? Putin isn't going to be prosecuted because he has nukes. The UN will write him a strongly-worded letter as he continues to commit war crimes. Ukraine will be expected to be constrained and fight fair.

Both sides deserve humanitarian aid, neither side is deserving of military aid. Hamas may be worse than Israel in many ways, but they already don't get military aid from the West. Israel do get military aid from the West. That's the issue I take. That innocent families and innocent medics are killed with Western-supplied bullets.

Hamas gets military aid from Iran, instead. Fine and well to have standards, but the enemy certainly doesn't. You can pressure Israel to do better to an extent, but their top priority is to eradicate Hamas and they're going to fight in any way practicable, same as Ukraine.
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Starver

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #558 on: March 26, 2024, 06:07:38 pm »

What good is any of that? Putin isn't going to be prosecuted because he has nukes. The UN will write him a strongly-worded letter as he continues to commit war crimes. Ukraine will be expected to be constrained and fight fair.
You basically asked why nobody was doing anything about Russia.

I gave you an example of something that someone was doing about Russia.

You then say that it doesn't matter what anybody tries to do, anyway.

...not even sure what kind of answer would satisfy you, under these circumstances.


(Did I even posit a relevent opinion about Ukraine only fighting scrupulously fair? Not sure I did, but could be that something else I did say was misinterpreted/miscontectualised...)

edit: We still have a whole other thread to deal with core Ukraine/Russia points. Though occasionally the issues merge/cross-pollinate, maybe I should have realised I was now totally wrong-subject/-thread crossed over. Sorry.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2024, 06:13:26 pm by Starver »
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Bumber

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #559 on: March 26, 2024, 06:37:28 pm »

You basically asked why nobody was doing anything about Russia.

I don't think so? I already know why nobody can do anything about Russia. (I.e., Russia has nukes and has threatened to use them. Ukraine gave theirs up in 1994 after President Clinton promised we'd protect them.)

"Do as you are being done by", as you put it, is the issue. Geneva Convention says that's not allowed, but Ukraine has no hope of justice through the ICC.


Let's get back to Hamas-Israel. If Israel decided against going into Gaza, would the UN do anything about the Oct 7 attack? Would they do anything about Hamas taking infants hostage and handing them over to other terror groups? Would the UN go in with their troops and fight a war on Israel's behalf if Hamas refused to turn over those responsible? Hamas doesn't have nukes, at least.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2024, 06:55:45 pm by Bumber »
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #560 on: March 26, 2024, 07:20:47 pm »

Look, all I can say is, the West Bank may not be a great place to live, but it's nothing like Gaza. This implies that, however much I am not a fan of Israel personally, Hamas is the real cause of the problem.

And the UN is a scam.
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pr1mezer0

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #561 on: March 26, 2024, 08:32:23 pm »

The idf claims it's killed 12000 hamas fighters.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-12000-hamas-fighters-killed-in-gaza-war-double-the-terror-groups-claim/
The first google result estimates 25000 fighters while israel estimates 30000.
Their metric seems to be counting every able-bodied man they kill as a hamas fighter. So if they continue their ratio of 2 civilians for every fighter(30k+ dead, 7k missing under the rubble), they need to kill 54000 more people to achieve their objective. Hopefully their metric doesn't change after that.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2024, 08:38:29 pm by pr1mezer0 »
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King Zultan

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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #562 on: March 27, 2024, 02:22:58 am »

I don't know why anyone puts any faith in anything the UN says because they seem like a bunch of big talking morons with their heads up their asses, and as far as I can tell they don't really do anything even if they say they're going to.
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Re: Israel-Gaza/Palestine war thread
« Reply #563 on: March 27, 2024, 11:40:33 am »

Well, the thing is, the UN doesn't want to settle this conflict, mainly because the UN has always been first and foremost a highly advanced battleground for abstract proxy wars.

Of course it could be done if the will were there. They managed to dismantle Yugoslavia.
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