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[bloop_bleep]

Now consider if they were Palestinians, and whether Israel would've published anything in that case.

[Loud Whispers]

Now consider if they were Palestinians, and whether Israel would've published anything in that case.

You don't need a hypothetical. Even in West Bank with no Hamas presence you can shoot them in the back of the head and it doesn't even result in an arrest, let alone a published report

[Strongpoint]

https://nypost.com/2023/12/16/news/majority-of-americans-18-24-think-israel-should-be-ended-and-given-to-hamas

Well... the US will have... interesting foreign policy in a few decades.

[EuchreJack]

https://nypost.com/2023/12/16/news/majority-of-americans-18-24-think-israel-should-be-ended-and-given-to-hamas

Well... the US will have... interesting foreign policy in a few decades.

Eh, it's poll in the NY Post.
18-24 year olds are notorious for changing their opinions.
In fact, do they truly have opinions, or do they simply disagree with what they think the establishment opinion may be?

There is little point in discussing the Israeli issue in America.
Those who support Israel will be rewarded and become more powerful.
Those who oppose Israel will find opportunities for advancement denied to them, and can have fun dying in a gutter, utterly powerless and with no voice.

Support Israel. It's the only real winning move in America.

[anewaname]

The internet is a horrible thing... now I've seen a video of an Israeli soldier pooping in a prayer rug because there was no running water in Gaza.(true, false, unsure...) Back when I first learned how the West Bank was both being divided and nibbled up, I used to joke that the bad karma Israel was accumulating would get them nuked. Now I can't joke about that because it seems so inevitable.

Support Israel. It's the only real winning move in America.

I generally agree that it is the only financially-winning move if one is entering a professional or corporate career... but not all of the current protesters would have that choice. Wouldn't a Palestinian-American be discriminated against regardless, because of Oct 7th? And once Palestinian-Americans have been blacklisted, what is the next group that would be blacklisted? I'm paraphrasing Martin Niemöller here, but the truth might be closer to "they can get still get decent professional/corporate work if they stick with the communities they were supporting and continue to fight the discrimination" and "pointing out unjust behavior and violent behavior is never wrong, but it can be poorly timed and poorly done".

Look at the hells that protesters in the American past have been put through, from lynchings, beatings, and all that. What is a bit of financial danger compared to death by lynching or living under the rule of some rich children who've been taught that all they see is god-granted to them to be raped and pillaged as they like? About 1 in 45 of the 9 million in Israel are dual-citizen-USA. Some of them are currently involved in the West Bank settlements, according to West Bank interview videos. It is probably not many, but some certainly are.

[Criptfeind]

https://nypost.com/2023/12/16/news/majority-of-americans-18-24-think-israel-should-be-ended-and-given-to-hamas

Well... the US will have... interesting foreign policy in a few decades.

These polls have some weird and contradictory results. In these polls the same age groups ALSO say that Israel is trying to avoid civilian causalities, just trying to defend itself, and has a right to exist. They say that there should be a unconditional cease fire, but also that hamas should be removed from power. (I can't help but notice on a relook, that the poll that this article is focused on doesn't even include what's probably a popular answer of Palestine being absorbed by Israel.)

[feelotraveller]

Now consider if they were Palestinians, and whether Israel would've published anything in that case.

You don't need a hypothetical. Even in West Bank with no Hamas presence you can shoot them in the back of the head and it doesn't even result in an arrest, let alone a published report

But, but, but, October 7th was entirely unprovoked.  (Sarcasm fully intended.)

The tally as of 4th October was 248 Palestinians killed by Israelis this year, and 35 Israelis by Palestinians.  Every week there were more killings, the vast majority unjustifiable like this one.  We had an ongoing conversation around my household about how long it would be before it all blew up. It triggered again every week (often daily) when more were murdered. My prediction was 12 months but it came a bit sooner.

[Bumber]

Waiting to hear how IDF knew the hostages were Israeli, yet deliberately targeted them anyway because IDF is more evil than incompetent.

Those who support Israel will be rewarded and become more powerful.
Those who oppose Israel will find opportunities for advancement denied to them, and can have fun dying in a gutter, utterly powerless and with no voice.

Unless you're in academia. Then you should be anti-Israel, anti-capitalist, pro-segregation Racial Affinity Group Caucusing, and probably anti-natalist. (You can't quite call pedophiles "M.A.P.s" yet, though.)


On to actual stuff, Hamas tried to stage terror attacks in Germany and Denmark. Seems their goals are a bit larger than a free Palestine.

New Palestinian opinion poll for those interested.

[Strongpoint]

The internet is a horrible thing... now I've seen a video of an Israeli soldier pooping in a prayer rug because there was no running water in Gaza.(true, false, unsure...)

Not that I would put it beyond individual Israeli soldiers but...

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0WRh2sPULZ

Do you mean this video? I fail to see any praying rag. I see a beige (likely military-issued) plastic bag

[bloop_bleep]

After the hostages being mowed down like cattle by IDF soldiers while shirtless and carrying white flags it is entirely clear to me that this whole time the IDF has been just roving around like bandits doing endless massacres in the Gaza Strip. Whether this is direct targeting or absolutely mind-blowing, utter, and casual disregard for human life doesn't matter. It's malice either way.

The killing of hostages was a mistake, but only because they should've been Palestinians.

[hector13]

Well… they did shoot the three shirtless guys carrying a white flag with a message in Hebrew, killing two and wounding one, the one running back to safety, and then presumably shouting in Hebrew for help (the BBC articles I’ve read mention a shout for help in Hebrew) and then finishing the job when he comes out.

So… incompetence doesn’t really cover that.

[feelotraveller]

The Pope has gone on record (again) accusing Israel of 'terrorism' after a woman and her daughter were murdered by an IDF sniper on church grounds.
https://www.reuters.com/world/pope-francis-deplores-israeli-killings-civilians-gaza-church-2023-12-17/

[McTraveller]

But, but, but, October 7th was entirely unprovoked.  (Sarcasm fully intended.)

The tally as of 4th October was 248 Palestinians killed by Israelis this year, and 35 Israelis by Palestinians.  Every week there were more killings, the vast majority unjustifiable like this one.  We had an ongoing conversation around my household about how long it would be before it all blew up. It triggered again every week (often daily) when more were murdered. My prediction was 12 months but it came a bit sooner.

It wasn't unprovoked, but if your neighborhood is being attacked by corrupt law enforcement you don't respond by attacking the random people that live in the neighborhoods where that law enforcement is from. You attack the law enforcement itself.

Sure there are basically portions of Israel that are essentially corrupt law enforcement, or gangs that are allowed to operate because of "law enforcement's" blind eye.  But this cannot ever justify attacking anyone other than those directly conducting or supporting violence.  That is, attack should be in proportion to violation. Sure yes the general Israeli population is somewhat culpable, if for no other reason that they don't stand up against violence committed "in the name of Israel", same as some of the residents of Gaza are culpable for not standing up against violence committed "in the name of Palestine."  But is silence or indifference really the same as active participation? If so, then we all deserve ultimate violence, because there is no meaningful distinction of degrees of culpability.

EDIT: is it possible, by definition, for a State to conduct terrorism? Isn't it simply acts of war or (war) crimes? Honest question here, I thought terrorism has a more narrow definition. Otherwise it seems like the term just gets watered down, and absolutely "anything" can be labeled terrorism.

[Starver]

Clearly a case of insufficient training, a surfeit of threat-perception and at least the usual healthy amount of self-preservation.

(Has anyone yet asked how many times those soldiers had encountered/heard of their true enemies trying to bluff a surrender in order to attack, for example? Not that I'm excusing all the various failings, but I don't think you could go so far as to think that Israeli soldiers just wanted to kill even fellow Israelis in their heightened sense of rabid bloodlust. I imagine there's a high baseline of 'settler mentality' amongst some, of course, and maybe add to that the expectations that they wouldn't find any friendlies in that territory/that all non-released hostages were probably dead/a deep distrust of every potential rouse that they could think of/etc.)


Personally, I think incompetence is certainly a very good start to the explanations, though people can probably argue about the rest of the icing on the cake.

[EuchreJack]

Those who support Israel will be rewarded and become more powerful.
Those who oppose Israel will find opportunities for advancement denied to them, and can have fun dying in a gutter, utterly powerless and with no voice.

Unless you're in academia. Then you should be anti-Israel, anti-capitalist, pro-segregation Racial Affinity Group Caucusing, and probably anti-natalist. (You can't quite call pedophiles "M.A.P.s" yet, though.)

Er...no. At least not in the Ivys and Ivy-adjacent.
Their University leadership is getting chewed up over their pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel statements.
And some states are ripping away all the safeguards that allow educators to speak against the popular opinions.

But I don't know much about the mess that is Academia, I was wise enough to avoid that trap.