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[feelotraveller]

The equation of Palestine with WWII-era Germany, and Hamas with the Nazi party is hilarious.

Not that I'm keen to go there but if anything Israel (and Likud) are better candidates for the "evil" equation.  But even they haven't established the gas chambers, so no I'm not going to make that claim.

How you don't see the ongoing genocide being perpetrated by Israel (which doesn't get excused even if Hamas=Evil btw) just amazes me.  A recent article points to the depth of the attempt to erase the palestinian heritage in the gaza strip.

https://english.palinfo.com/Palestinian-Heritage/2023/12/30/311988/

...the occupation army targeted and destroyed more than 200 archaeological and heritage sites out of 325 sites in the Gaza Strip, including ancient mosques, churches, schools, museums, ancient houses, and various heritage sites.

Pre-edit: LW posted while I was writing, haven't read that yet.

[anewaname]

...
Can't think of a scenario more dangerous to the zionist project than friendly Israeli-Palestinian relations where rule of law & diplomatic relations and not military force set the stage.
...

Truth...

Which is why the people who act as bridge-builders between communities are assassinated.

[Strongpoint]

The equation of Palestine with WWII-era Germany, and Hamas with the Nazi party is hilarious.

The difference is only in capabilities. Gaza (not Palestine, West Bank doesn't have nearly enough autonomy to really build anything.) was a territory with a very high degree of autonomy and independence. After Israel withdrew from Gaza and forcefully removed every Jew from there (who were kicking and screaming), the local population got a chance to try to build whatever society they wished.

They spent almost two decades of relative independence to build a militaristic, genocidal, totalitarian society. And on October 7th they made a mini-Holocaust. Mini - because they are not Third Reich in resources. And they suffer the consequences of their actions and decisions.

If they built something different Israel wouldn't bomb them, furthermore,l if the withdrawal from Gaza was a success, it is rather likely that Israel would also pull away from the West Bank, dragging local Jews away by force, too.

Now, Israel won't be giving anything to Palestinians until they persuade them that they have changed. No amount of sanctions or international pressure will make Israel repeat the mistake of pulling out of Gaza in 2005. If Palestinians want some kind of two-state solution, they'll need to prove Israeli that they are ready and capable to live in peace.

[Il Palazzo]

- Alright, we gotta incentivise the population to boot those genocidal bastards outta power. Let us commence wholesale infanticide. Seems like the only way.
- Yes sir! -- Sir, we appear to have failed to enact political change yet.
- Have you been bombing the children?
- Yes sir!
- Well then, have they mentioned why they persist in their evil ways?
- They say their hearts were steeled after seeing all those dead children we bombed.
- How odd. Seems we haven't bombed enough children. After all, what else can you do.
- ... Sir, I was thinking. Isn't it a bit wrong to be bombing all those children?
- Hmm. Yes, I see what you're saying. But look, the government is genocidal and some of their parents did elect those bastards before they were born. And that makes them as complicit as any.
- Yes sir. Of course sir. You've made me feel very naive.
- Indeed. Besides, if you think about it, they're bound to grow up into genocidal maniacs themselves after witnessing all that slaughter we're doing.
- Carry on then?
- Carry on. I'm sure a few thousand more is all it takes.

[Strongpoint]

- Alright, we gotta incentivise the population to boot those genocidal bastards outta power. Let us commence wholesale infanticide. Seems like the only way.
- Yes sir! -- Sir, we appear to have failed to enact political change yet.
- Have you been bombing the children?
- Yes sir!
- Well then, have they mentioned why they persist in their evil ways?
- They say their hearts were steeled after seeing all those dead children we bombed.
- How odd. Seems we haven't bombed enough children. After all, what else can you do.
- ... Sir, I was thinking. Isn't it a bit wrong to be bombing all those children?
- Hmm. Yes, I see what you're saying. But look, the government is genocidal and some of their parents did elect those bastards before they were born. And that makes them as complicit as any.
- Yes sir. Of course sir. You've made me feel very naive.
- Indeed. Besides, if you think about it, they're bound to grow up into genocidal maniacs themselves after witnessing all that slaughter we're doing.
- Carry on then?
- Carry on. I'm sure a few thousand more is all it takes.

I guess Germans and Japanese were so wrong to meekly accept the occupation of evil Americans after all the children killed by carpet bombing AND nuclear bombs. They should have met the occupation with armed resistance and wrapped all of their culture around the revenge and idea of genociding all Americans. Like Palestinians (the most virtuous ethnic group on the Earth according to the UN and many others), did and keep doing after each next war THEY start.

[Jerick]

I guess Germans and Japanese were so wrong to meekly accept the occupation of evil Americans after all the children killed by carpet bombing AND nuclear bombs. They should have met the occupation with armed resistance and wrapped all of their culture around the revenge and idea of genociding all Americans. Like Palestinians (the most virtuous ethnic group on the Earth according to the UN and many others), did and keep doing after each next war THEY start.

No one has ever claimed Palestinians as the most virtuous ethnic group on earth, I doubt even the most utterly unhinged and extremist hamas member (and they can get pretty unhinged) would claim that. You're mistaking people seeing them as undeserving of genocide as people seeing them as virtuous. As it happens the bar for being undeserving of genocide is pretty damn low in my opinion. They just have to exist.

As for the Germans + Japanese vs Gaza comparison the fact that you don't seem to get the difference tells me you don't know much of the post-war history. That and you are in deep denial about how badly Israel has been treating the Palestinians this whole time. The Americans and the allies didn't dismantle the ideology of Japan and Germany at rifle point. They poured resources, effort and manpower into rebuilding those places and then through genuinely fair trials brought out all the evidence of the horrors that the Nazi party had done. Had they treated them the way the Isreali government has been treating the Palestinians those ideologies would still be there and still be strong. Had they started rounding up people and summarily excuting people there would have been armed resistance. Had they cut off supplies, hemmed people in and restricted access then there would have been terrorist bombings.

Everything about how Isreal has handled Palestine seems designed to maximise resentment. I do not support the actions they have taken in response but I view them as an inevitable consequence of the status quo. A consequence that I warned off in the past, as I now warn of consquences in the future for the death and suffering being inflicted now. When those consequences happen I'll once again condemn them as I condemn the attack that started this whole round of violence. It is a predictable cycle of violence and you seem to only call for punishment for Palestinians and not for anything that would genuinely fix things. There is only one way out of this. There has always been one way out. You already know what it is but you can't stomach it because you hate them. I don't blame you for hating them by the way, same as I don't blame them for hating Isreal. I don't view this whole mess as something with good guys and bad guys. I view it as an open wound that needs fixing. And this latest round of disproportionate retaliation has only made things worse.

[anewaname]

Israel will never leave the West Bank for the same strategic reasons that they occupied it in 1967. There is a string of military bases leading up to and into the Golan Heights, which was grabbed specifically for defense. The justification for occupying that land was feasible, since Israel was under constant threat of attack.

The justification for taking the resources and land away from the civilians of that occupied land is something different. It happened quietly and steadily, for years, justified by hate-speech and new interpretations of religious texts, all pointing at the right to take by force from the "inferior" all the land promised by their idea (of their God).

[Strongpoint]

It is a predictable cycle of violence and you seem to only call for punishment for Palestinians and not for anything that would genuinely fix things.

No. I don't call for punishments. I merely recognize that what Gaza is receiving is not something unjust but a direct consequence of their own choices, including the sheer barbarity of October 7th. Israel had done and is doing many unjust things. But war against HAMAS-run Gaza is no more unjust than the Soviet war against Nazi-run Third Reich (and the USSR being bad guys changes nothing)


And I have suggestions of what needs to be done - the very same thing that was done with Germany post-WW2. American-style occupation is better than Soviet style of occupation and I have very reasonable assumptions that Israeli occupation won't be too fair and too benevolent... but any occupation is better than occupation by Hamas.

IMO, The best theoretical option is having occupation done by peacekeepers from Arabian countries with their oil money being used for rebuilding but the chance for that is slim.

Note that there is no sure way to change Palestinian culture, even if we'll remove the current shit in charge of Israel with the best politicians imaginable, in the end, it all comes to the decisions of the Palestinian people. World and Israel can nudge them in one direction or another but they have their own agency, they make decisions about what to embrace and what not to embrace.

[Loud Whispers]

NYT investigation finds Israel dropped 2,000lb bombs on areas it told civilians to go to

[MorleyDev]

Israel had done and is doing many unjust things. But war against HAMAS-run Gaza is no more unjust than the Soviet war against Nazi-run Third Reich (and the USSR being bad guys changes nothing)

And the Eastern Berlin occupation of Nazi Germany was something nobody should have protested against, called for international condemnation of, or otherwise done anything but nod and go "well better than the Nazis at least"?

You know what, let's go to a different moral/philosophical question to get at the fundementals: If Ukraine drone striked a school in Russia because they knew a key Russian General was picking up their child there, would that be acceptable collatoral?

[Strongpoint]

And the Eastern Berlin occupation of Nazi Germany was something nobody should have protested against, called for international condemnation of, or otherwise done anything but nod and go "well better than the Nazis at least"?

In 1945? After USSR got the pre-agreed occupation zone (more or less)? No. Not really. You would be laughed at. Years later, when Eastern Germany was not Nazi in any way, yes.

Also, criticism and demonizing are different things. If Israel was as evil as a large chunk of media claims, we would be looking at 6 figure civilian casualties long ago.

You know what, let's go to a different moral/philosophical question to get at the fundementals: If Ukraine drone striked a school in Russia because they knew a key Russian General was picking up their child there, would that be acceptable collatoral?

In a hypothetical, when there is no other possible way to get that general - yes. Borderline yes but yes nevertheless.

In real life, a strike should be done on his car before he reaches the kindergarten, doing otherwise will be neglect to limit unnecessary collateral

___________

Speaking of collateral, someone made a rather serious terror attack on Iran. I won't be surprised if it was Israel aiming at certain leaders. Of course, fans of the dead Iranian general aren't innocent children but I do hope it wasn't Mossad

[None]

Well, I regret checking into this thread for updates. There are entirely too many justifications for the genocide of Palestine in here. Jesus.

[McTraveller]

There's a sadly blurry line between justification and commiseration though.

I don't see much argument for "they are fine for doing what they are doing, and should be doing it" but rather "I can understand why they are doing this."

But short story is, yes, it probably is a case of both sides really wanting to completely obliterate their enemy. I don't understand why people are so surprised by this.  They really don't consider others as humans, they consider them as "less than"; they consider their enemy to be like cancer, and just like cancer treatment often involves willingness to kill non-cancerous cells, the powers in charge of the fighting are indeed willing to inflict collateral damage with the thought that it's worth it to kill all the entities they really want to eliminate.  And that doesn't even get to the truly psychotic people who just really want an excuse to murder, maim, and torture others, who are given opportunity to satiate their desires in a war-stricken environment.

THIS IS WHY WAR SUCKS.

[Strongpoint]

Killing many people in a war (even with war crimes) and genocide are not the same. Harsh occupation and genocide are also not the same. There is simply no genocide in Gaza or West Bank and there are very, very slim chances of genocide in the future (even if Israel has fucks in the government with genocidal ideas...). Believe it or not, Israel is a democratic country and many Jews don't like genocides and won't simply allow the aforementioned fucks to do anything they want.

The worst possible outcome of this war is harsh occupation and partial ethnic cleansing in the form of "voluntary" resettlement of refugees. It is, sadly, also a fairly possible outcome. But before accusing Israel of that... let them win the war first.

Please, don't throw the word genocide around, don't devalue it.

[None]

partial ethnic cleansing in the form of "voluntary" resettlement of refugees

this

is

genocide