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[Loud Whispers]

I'll tell you more, it is very likely that Israel will be "destroying Hamas" not only in the West Bank but also in Lebanon, Syria and other places.

>We will destroy Hamas everywhere
>especially the places where there aren't Hamas

Israel is in a war mode and will stay there until Israeli society will feel relatively safe. For years, if necessary.  It will kill whoever they see as a threat everywhere. And yes, there will be cases of misidentification and even callous indifference.

I too kill everyone I think could be a threat to me

The post man has given up trying to deliver my mail

[Strongpoint]

Destroying Hamas is a minimum goal and Hamas is most definitely present in the West Bank and Lebanon. And Hamas have minor militant groups that are their allies. Even if that strike, almost certainly, killed randoms, it is just an episode in the war against Hamas and their allies. Some can believe it is a mistake Israel won't admit, others - an excuse for the intentional murder of random Palestinians...


Also, my previous message is not about the morality of Israeli actions but about their motivation. I am confident that Israel won't stop until they feel relatively safe or until they are militarily defeated. Some protests in faraway countries, boycotts or even sanctions won't change that.

[Loud Whispers]

Destroying Hamas is a minimum goal and Hamas is most definitely present in the West Bank and Lebanon. And Hamas have minor militant groups that are their allies. Even if that strike, almost certainly, killed randoms, it is just an episode in the war against Hamas and their allies. Some can believe it is a mistake Israel won't admit, others - an excuse for the intentional murder of random Palestinians...

Bruh this aint an episode this is season ten of "we targeted civilians again." Otherwise we got a long pattern of snipers who mistakenly target civilians, air force controllers who mistakenly target churches, officers who mistakenly tell civilians to flee into buildings they drop 2,000 lb bombs on, soldiers who mistakenly shoot civilians in the head, soldiers who mistakenly shoot israelis because they think they're palestinians et cetera et cetera

Like it's all so tiring. "We didn't blow up that press building, but even if we did, we didn't kill anyone it was Hamas, but even if we did kill them, they were Hamas, even if they weren't Hamas, they supported Hamas, even if they didn't support Hamas, it was a random accident, and even if it wasn't a random accident, it was an isolated incident, even if it wasn't an isolated incident, the threat was real in my mind, anyways when are you sending more missiles?"

Also, my previous message is not about the morality of Israeli actions but about their motivation. I am confident that Israel won't stop until they feel relatively safe or until they are militarily defeated. Some protests in faraway countries, boycotts or even sanctions won't change that.

It's one of those things that's a description but not an explanation. You can't just have a rogue nuclear armed state flagrantly violating basic moral and legal principles like people should be able to exist without fearing someone murdering them in a war of conquest

The decades of Israeli-Palestinian conflict, he declared during the primetime appearance at the Kirya military base in Tel Aviv, are “not about the absence of a state, a Palestinian state, but rather about the existence of a state, a Jewish state.

“All territory we evacuate, we get terror, terrible terror against us,” he said, citing Gaza, southern Lebanon and parts of Judea and Samaria (the West Bank). Therefore, “in any future arrangement, or in the absence of an arrangement,” he said, Israel must maintain “security control” of all territory west of the Jordan River — meaning, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. “That is a vital condition.”

He acknowledged that this “contradicts the idea of sovereignty [for the Palestinians]. What can you do? I tell this truth to our American friends.”

Realistically all that needs to change is just the USA dropping its support for Israel and allowing the UN to pass a binding resolution

Especially since the USA used to care about diplomatically isolating itself over Israel

[Strongpoint]

War of conquest? Wait a minute... Isn't all of Palestine is already occupied and neither Gaza nor the West Bank have political autonomy?


_____________
That Netanyahu quote above is factually true. There are many bad things to quote from Netanyahu but this isn't one. As soon as Palestinians get any partial autonomy they use it to... attack Israel with terror. More autonomy results only in more terror.  Isn't it just true? Isn't it a natural response to this is to take more (or all) of that autonomy away? Until... Until something change in the mentality of Palestinians


________
Also, I totally expect that Israel will just say FU to a binding USCN resolution that will demand their surrender in a winning war. Who will make them obey? American invasion? Also, I'd want to see that. I am eagerly awaiting the collapse of the UN. Israel leaving it would be a good start.

[Loud Whispers]

War of conquest? Wait a minute... Isn't all of Palestine is already occupied and neither Gaza nor the West Bank have political autonomy?

Russian invasion of Ukraine isn't a war of conquest because they already occupied Crimea and Donbas then

It's just a circular logic of "our war crimes justify continued war crimes." Israeli governments support Hamas. Hamas stops Palestinians in Gaza from governing themselves. This divides them from Palestinians in the West bank. End result; neither side can resist land annexations and cleansing. Can't think of a scenario more dangerous to the zionist project than friendly Israeli-Palestinian relations where rule of law & diplomatic relations and not military force set the stage. Like fuck man, how am I supposed to reconcile the cognitive dissonance between palestinians must be punished collectively (war crime) over a Hamas they didn't support, whilst I am supposed to support the government coalition with the Jewish Power party that openly endorses racism and terrorism? White Power parties aren't even legal to have in most European countries

A real estate company has swooped in on a stretch of beachfront in Gaza in a bid to build luxury homes on land reduced to rubble. Harey Zahav, a leading real estate company in Israel, is advertising building beach homes in Gush Katif, as war rages on between Israel and Hamas.

The region, inside Gaza, was part of 17 Israeli settlements inside the strip until August 2005 when the Israeli army forcibly removed Jewish residents from their homes after Israel "unilaterally disengaged" from the region. In a string of posts to Harey Zahav's Instagram account, the company shares its intentions to build the condos on the beachfront, with videos showing workers talking about plans on-site, as well as other graphics showing what appear to be housing layout and even the opportunity to buy at presale.

"We at Harey Zahav are working to prepare the ground for a return to Gush Katif," a translation seen by Express.co.uk reads. "A number of our employers have started working on the reclamation of the area, the removal of waste and the expulsion of invaders."

Multiple posts on social media appear to show that the company is in Gaza and already carrying out work.

One video shows Shalom Warmstein, described as a 'business associate' on Harey Zahav's website, dressed in military fatigues and allegedly in Gaza.
To the sound of construction works in the background, he says: "What's up, wow, I miss you. We are here in the heart of Gaza doing what we do. Good luck to you, I love you, bye bye," according to translation software used by Express.co.uk.

In another post, a CAT excavator can be seen cleaning the ground, with a vast ocean in the background.
A separate image shows three men holding a yellow and blue Israel flag that reads: "Another brick is being built — we will remember and come back."

More detailed real estate plans show a graphic of the Gaza Strip with dots pointing towards proposed units and their planned locations, with new names for settlements, and a caption that reads: "Now at presale prices."
It is unclear if Harey Zahav has started accepting payments for its properties. The company did not respond to a request for comment.

Karim Ali, international coordinator and co-founder of paracycling team the Gaza Sunbirds, told Express.co.uk that the activities "didn't surprise" him.
He said: "We were seeing early designs coming out from these agencies, and ultimately speaking, I think this just prequalifies what we've been saying along, that this war has nothing to do with Hamas or what happened on October 7. It's being motivated by profits, as war often is. It is a war of conquest.

"These houses that are being built, in my opinion, are nothing short of colonial settlements being built on stolen land — not land from Palestine but land from Palestinians.
"It's speaking about what is to come, and I think the world should treat this as a late-stage warning signal of the true extent of their horrible intent for Gaza."

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Doesn't matter whether you call it a special military occupation or a war of conquest. This goes back to the whole "oh no no no, Israel isn't genociding the palestinians. They're ethnically cleansing them." Cos nothing says "WE ARE FIGHTING A WAR FOR SURVIVAL" than air striking civilians in a refugee camp or wiping out a block of civilians where you told them to go and then building beachfront luxury real estate on their corpses. Property developers really quaking in their boots at how close they are to the brink of armageddon and a nice meditteranean breeze

partial ethnic cleansing in the form of "voluntary" resettlement of refugees

this

is

genocide

It's not murder unless it's from the murder region of France. Otherwise it's just a sparkling war crime

That Netanyahu quote above is factually true. There are many bad things to quote from Netanyahu but this isn't one. As soon as Palestinians get any partial autonomy they use it to... attack Israel with terror. More autonomy results only in more terror.  Isn't it just true? Isn't it a natural response to this is to take more (or all) of that autonomy away? Until... Until something change in the mentality of Palestinians

"You are stealing my house"

"Why you mad though?"

"You are stealing my house"

"Okay but why don't we also take away your autonomy until your attitude improves"

Also, I totally expect that Israel will just say FU to a binding USCN resolution that will demand their surrender in a winning war.

It's not surrender mate people just want the ethnic cleansing to stop -_-

Who will make them obey? American invasion? Also, I'd want to see that.

1. Breh no one is suggesting turning Israel into a vassal state of the USA
2. I admire the confidence but Israel's chances of defeating the USA in an actual invasion are 0%
3. USA would literally just need to stop blocking every UNSC resolution against Israel and apply conditions to the 50 years of military aid amounting to $3B annual adjusted for inflation. Not even cut it; just add conditions like "use this for self-defence, not conquest. Respect Palestinian statehood, peace treaties and UN agreements you already signed." Cos there are more options to resolve conflicts internationally than the dichotomy between "UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER" and "NO QUARTER HELD TOTAL WAR." Apartheid in South Africa didn't need a giant shock and awe military campaign to end it

Americans really be like "hahaha fuck poor people we can't afford public healthcare also let's give aid to Israel which does have public healthcare"

It is a cheeky bit o banter. But one of these days we can pray there'll be a US election candidate who actually asks why
>we send aid to help Palestinians rebuild after they're blown up

>we send hellfire missiles to Israel to blow up the Palestinians

>repeat

I am eagerly awaiting the collapse of the UN. Israel leaving it would be a good start.

I look forward to a world in which the weak should fear the strong, and every time the French argue with us over scallop fishing rights we pre-emptively nuclear bomb Belgium to send a message. And if the USA tells us we're out of line, we join the ranks of free nations who understand how the world works, like Iran and North Korea, who know that the United Nations is fucking lame and we should just be allowed to launch crusades wherever we want, because crusades were cool and law is cringe

[scriver]

Do you actually believe there's no Hamas in the West Bank? You're gonna have to back that up with something.

As for "war of conquest"... No, mate. Hamas started this war. If it ends with a reoccupied Gaza, sure. Until then, keep a lid om that ridiculous propaganda.

[Loud Whispers]

Do you actually believe there's no Hamas in the West Bank? You're gonna have to back that up with something.

As for "war of conquest"... No, mate. Hamas started this war. If it ends with a reoccupied Gaza, sure. Until then, keep a lid om that ridiculous propaganda.

Hey scriver can you prove to me you're not Hamas?

I won't engage with you until you prove you're not Hamas. I don't want to talk to anyone who can't prove they're not Hamas

Bonus round: we are fighting a war for survival...

...Burns your food and water

...Invades your home to look at your underwear

...Invades a toy store and smashes the toys

...Steals bikes from children after killing 1% of all of Gaza's children

...No one is uninvolved. Everyone is guilty

In the first three weeks of the current operation, Swords of Iron, the civilian proportion of total deaths rose to 61%, in what Levy described as “unprecedented killing” for Israeli forces in Gaza. The ratio is significantly higher than the average civilian toll in all the conflicts around the world from the second world war to the 1990s, in which civilians accounted for about half the dead, according to Levy.

“The broad conclusion is that extensive killing of civilians not only contributes nothing to Israel’s security, but that it also contains the foundations for further undermining it,” Levy concluded. “The Gazans who will emerge from the ruins of their homes and the loss of their families will seek revenge that no security arrangements will be able to withstand.”

The study confirms an investigation 10 days ago by the Israeli-Palestinian publication +972 Magazine and the Hebrew-language outlet Local Call, which found Israel was deliberately targeting residential blocks to cause mass civilian casualties in the hope people would turn on their Hamas rulers. The figures will make uneasy reading for the Biden administration, which is facing global criticism and isolation for vetoing a UN security council vote for a ceasefire on Friday.

And in other news, one fifth of Israeli soldiers killed in this offensive have been killed by Israeli soldiers.

Never has there been a finer mob of well-disciplined soldiers

[scriver]

I'm not asking to prove the people killed weren't hamas. You weren't even claiming the people killed weren't hamas. You were claiming there is no hamas on the West Bank. This is what you have to defend. It's well documented that hamas is active in the west bank too. They fatah's biggest competitor for the leadership of it ffs.

Don't do this pretentious dance as if the one making a disearnest argument when you're the one who won't engage in good faith.

[Strongpoint]

Russian invasion of Ukraine isn't a war of conquest because they already occupied Crimea and Donbas then

No-no-no. Ukrainians didn't claim full and total occupation of all of Ukraine like (pro-)Palestinians claimed about Gaza and West Bank. I was attacked on this very forum for claiming that Gaza was a de-facto independent country. 

  Cos nothing says "WE ARE FIGHTING A WAR FOR SURVIVAL" than air striking civilians in a refugee camp or wiping out a block of civilians where you told them to go and then building

To my knowledge, Israel never claimed that not a single bomb would fall on the areas they say are safer for civilians. They never promised - hey, Hamas, you can do whatever you want in those areas. If I am wrong, please provide me with a link.

All Israel did was saying "Hey Civilians - this place will be bad, we suggest you to move there, your chances to survive there are way higher"

"You are stealing my house"

"Why you mad though?"

"You are stealing my house"

"Okay but why don't we also take away your autonomy until your attitude improves"

Oh, I remember this one and what it caused...

Several families were kicked out of their homes by a court decision. Let's assume it is totally bogus and unfair, is terrorism actually a proportional response and will help your cause? Let's assume Russian court kicked some people out of their properties in Crimea (hard to imagine, I know) is murderous terrorism a proper response? Would the current war look the same if the Ukrainians of Crimea had started an intifada-style resistance in 2014? Or if all Ukrainians did so including "acts" in Moscow on some random resorts and murdering of random ethnic Russians inside Ukraine...

And in other news, one fifth of Israeli soldiers killed in this offensive have been killed by Israeli soldiers.

It is not that high, actually. WW2 average is estimated around 10-15%. American losses in Vietnam are around the same. With one side being way stronger than the other this rate will naturally go up.

[hector13]

I'm not asking to prove the people killed weren't hamas. You weren't even claiming the people killed weren't hamas. You were claiming there is no hamas on the West Bank. This is what you have to defend. It's well documented that hamas is active in the west bank too. They fatah's biggest competitor for the leadership of it ffs.

Don't do this pretentious dance as if the one making a disearnest argument when you're the one who won't engage in good faith.

scriver, Strongpoint has argued that “partial ethnic cleansing” isn’t genocide, in the face of Israeli government ministers saying they want the Palestinians because Israelis will do better with the land, and the blockade.

Also, Hamas didn’t “start this”, it’s a conflict that’s been going on for decades and decades, Israel has just decided to do what they usually do in response to Hamas attacks harder and longer.

Did Israel stop Hamas the last time they dropped bombs on Gaza? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that?

Regardless, LW wasn’t claiming there was no Hamas in West Bank, he was calling into question Israel’s stated goal of destroying Hamas, because they dropped, and continue to drop, bombs on civilians who have nothing to do with militants, Hamas or otherwise.

[Strongpoint]

scriver, Strongpoint has argued that “partial ethnic cleansing” isn’t genocide, in the face of Israeli government ministers saying they want the Palestinians because Israelis will do better with the land, and the blockade.

Because it isn't. Words have meanings. It is a different, lesser crime. Deportations, (not done in a way to cause mass deaths in transit or on arrival), are not genocides. Not that Israel has started any deportations yet even if Bibi and friends said a few times that they intend to "motivate" Palestinians to move to other countries.

When Russia occupied Crimea and made many Ukrainians leave using various methods and replaced those Ukrainians with colonists it wasn't a genocide. What Russian proxies did in "DPR\LPR", where people were killed simply because they are Ukrainians can be qualified as such but it is still arguable and can be seen as widespread hate crimes. What they are doing now is exactly genocide.

[scriver]

I'm not asking to prove the people killed weren't hamas. You weren't even claiming the people killed weren't hamas. You were claiming there is no hamas on the West Bank. This is what you have to defend. It's well documented that hamas is active in the west bank too. They fatah's biggest competitor for the leadership of it ffs.

Don't do this pretentious dance as if the one making a disearnest argument when you're the one who won't engage in good faith.

scriver, Strongpoint has argued that “partial ethnic cleansing” isn’t genocide, in the face of Israeli government ministers saying they want the Palestinians because Israelis will do better with the land, and the blockade.

Also, Hamas didn’t “start this”, it’s a conflict that’s been going on for decades and decades, Israel has just decided to do what they usually do in response to Hamas attacks harder and longer.

Did Israel stop Hamas the last time they dropped bombs on Gaza? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that? The time before that?

Regardless, LW wasn’t claiming there was no Hamas in West Bank, he was calling into question Israel’s stated goal of destroying Hamas, because they dropped, and continue to drop, bombs on civilians who have nothing to do with militants, Hamas or otherwise.

No, LW was literally claiming there is no hamas in the West Bank, and he's done it previously in this thread as well.

[hector13]

So are we operating on a falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus basis here? Because he was wrong/erroneous/lying in one thing that everything else he says is wrong or irrelevant?

[scriver]

So are we operating on a falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus basis here? Because he was wrong/erroneous/lying in one thing that everything else he says is wrong or irrelevant?

What are you on about? I asked him if he actually thought that one thing.

[hector13]

Don't do this pretentious dance as if the one making a disearnest argument when you're the one who won't engage in good faith.