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[Solara]

quote:Originally posted by Urganite:
<STRONG>If I didn't spend 4 or 5 hours a day for the last three days playing this game, I wouldn't have known dwarves were such pussies/blood-thirsty maniacs.</STRONG>

LOL! I was just thinking that earlier today. I thought dwarves were supposed to be tough and resilient? Not getting bedridden and wasting away from a little scratch or whining about seeing a rat or having their fragile little minds completely snap at any given moment...

[Aquillion]

You have to look at it from their perspective, though.  It's easy to say that they're snapping easily when you're just looking at things from outside the monitor and reading events in lines on the screen.

When a dwarf gets a serious wound, though, they are likely to be maimed for life.  It's not so strange for extremely tough, previously self-relient types of people to completely flip out when faced with that sort of thing.

And we're not talking about 'seeing a rat'.  We're talking about having the fortress that you slaved to create crawling with rats.  We're talking rats and vermin crawling over you while you sleep and eating the food out of your hands.

And don't forget the other things.  Portions of the fortress are covered in noxious, wretched miasmas of decay so thick that they actually obscure your view.  Friends and relatives die regularly and are sometimes just left to rot on the ground.  Wild raccoons and other horrible monsters are just waiting for the chance to rip out your throat. If you make a mistake or fail to meet a production order, the sheriff cuts you to pieces with an axe.  Horrible creatures regularly crawl out of your drinking water and try to murder you in your beds.  Filthy new immigrants are constantly being shoved into your fortress' cramped quarters, forcing you to work yourself down to the bone to get new quarters ready and leaving you with barely enough food to get through the winter.  And when food runs out, you're reduced to grubbing for rats, beetles, and worms in order to survive.

And then, when inspiration finally strikes--when you finally a chance to do what you've been dreaming to do for your entire life, the one reason you really went through the hell of this horrible fortress, the one true Dwarven dream--when you finally feel inspiration strike you and can see the form of your artifact in your head, you end up wasting three months doing nothing as your incompetitent leaders fail to provide you with the necessary materials. Eventually, the vision begins to fade and you realize you can no longer remember what the artifact you'd waited your entire life for even looks like.  Wouldn't you go mad, too?

Don't ask why your dwarves go insane or throw tantrums.  Ask how they manage to stay sane the rest of the time.

[ August 19, 2006: Message edited by: Aquillion ]

[Dehydration]

quote:
And then, when inspiration finally strikes--when you finally a chance to do what you've been dreaming to do for your entire life, the one reason you really went through the hell of this horrible fortress, the one true Dwarven dream--when you finally feel inspiration strike you and can see the form of your artifact in your head, you end up wasting three months doing nothing as your incompetitent leaders fail to provide you with the necessary materials. Eventually, the vision begins to fade and you realize you can no longer remember what the artifact you'd waited your entire life for even looks like.  Wouldn't you go mad, too?

Don't ask why your dwarves go insane or throw tantrums.  Ask how they manage to stay sane the rest of the time.

I love you.

[RPB]

quote:Originally posted by Oboro:
<STRONG>And I also have a bunch of idle jewelers and gems that are totally useless unless they are the specific type a jeweler wants when he gets possessed which is unlikely when I have two jewelers out of 77 dwarves.

See my dilemma?</STRONG>

Non-jewelers will occasionally want gems when they go into a strange mood, too. As for the gems being "useless"... if you have enough crafts skills, the things you make will be valuable enough on their own to impress your dwarves and earn enough from traders to get everything you want (by which I mean "everything"). However, having really good craftsdwarves will not save someone from insanity. So as I see it, helping satisfy the demands of possessed craftsdwarves is a more useful function of raw gems than decorating other items would be, which is why my extra jewelers often find themselves being drafted into the army or switched to another profession. I do lots of mining, enough that I can do some jeweling and still be sure I have a few of each type of rough gem, but not enough to justify even one full-time jeweler.

Of course, you might see things differently. I find increasing the survival rate for the possessed important enough to dedicate most of my gem production to it; maybe you don't.

[Virtz]

I've recently acquired the most expensive bucket ever. Made of platinum with 3 layers of platinum decorations. Worth 192k (!). As useless as it may be, I hope to some day see a caravan with goods worth more than 192k so that I can make a good deal.

[Oboro]

quote:Originally posted by RPB:
<STRONG>

Non-jewelers will occasionally want gems when they go into a strange mood, too. As for the gems being "useless"... if you have enough crafts skills, the things you make will be valuable enough on their own to impress your dwarves and earn enough from traders to get everything you want (by which I mean "everything"). However, having really good craftsdwarves will not save someone from insanity. So as I see it, helping satisfy the demands of possessed craftsdwarves is a more useful function of raw gems than decorating other items would be, which is why my extra jewelers often find themselves being drafted into the army or switched to another profession. I do lots of mining, enough that I can do some jeweling and still be sure I have a few of each type of rough gem, but not enough to justify even one full-time jeweler.

Of course, you might see things differently. I find increasing the survival rate for the possessed important enough to dedicate most of my gem production to it; maybe you don't.</STRONG>

Look, I'm not arguing with your playstyle, I'm asking you to look at the logic of what it's making you do because it's wildly counterintuitive.

Instead of using the gems you find, you're stocking them away in a pile in anticipation of a dwarf going crazy and demanding them. The current system encourages metagaming and discourages using gems for their intended purpose. In my opinion, this is a strike against the game.

I could do what you do, but then what? Gems have just been rendered worthless. I take greater pride in creating a double-masterpiece ruby-spiked crown than in satisfying a crazy jeweler or craftsdwarf because I knew what the game was going to throw against me and planned accordingly. It's metagaming by the definition and I detest that.

EDIT: And d'oh, my metalsmith on my new fortress just went all moody on me and the only ore we've found is useless ol' sphalerite. Not even the copper to complement it and make it refinable.  

[ August 20, 2006: Message edited by: Oboro ]

[RPB]

So you're not arguing with my playstyle, you just detest it. How generous of you.

Ignoring the issue of whether or not it's "metagaming" and whether this is BAD BAD BAD EVIL SCARY WRONG, you keep insisting that saving gems for possessed crafters makes them "worthless". This is untrue. Creating astronomically expensive jewelled items is cool, but that itself has very little worth. There is no particular benefit to creating jewelled items that cannot adequately be covered through other means (regular exceptional and masterpiece items are easy enough to get, they impress the hell out of your dwarves, and you can make buckets of quality unjewelled trade goods to get whatever you want from the caravans), while there is a very important benefit to be had by stockpiling gems against possessions. And if you just do enough mining, you'll have enough gems that you can still create some jewelled items anyhow while still stockpiling leftovers. You get about half as many cool, but ultimately not very useful jewelled items this way, and about half as many experienced craftsdwarves going crazy and killing themselves and others. I do not consider that to be worthless.

Gem requirements almost seem to be relaxed in the latest version, though; I've seen dwarves with specific gem preferences that were available going for various types of cut and uncut glass instead, even though they had no preference for glass. Maybe glass just works as a gem substitute? Possibly it's a distinct type of demand from gems--I never had a chance to see what they were asking for in either case that it happened, because they just went and fetched everything all at once.

[Oboro]

quote:Originally posted by RPB:
<STRONG>So you're not arguing with my playstyle, you just detest it. How generous of you.

Ignoring the issue of whether or not it's "metagaming" and whether this is BAD BAD BAD EVIL SCARY WRONG, you keep insisting that saving gems for possessed crafters makes them "worthless". This is untrue. Creating astronomically expensive jewelled items is cool, but that itself has very little worth. There is no particular benefit to creating jewelled items that cannot adequately be covered through other means (regular exceptional and masterpiece items are easy enough to get, they impress the hell out of your dwarves, and you can make buckets of quality unjewelled trade goods to get whatever you want from the caravans), while there is a very important benefit to be had by stockpiling gems against possessions. And if you just do enough mining, you'll have enough gems that you can still create some jewelled items anyhow while still stockpiling leftovers. You get about half as many cool, but ultimately not very useful jewelled items this way, and about half as many experienced craftsdwarves going crazy and killing themselves and others. I do not consider that to be worthless.

Gem requirements almost seem to be relaxed in the latest version, though; I've seen dwarves with specific gem preferences that were available going for various types of cut and uncut glass instead, even though they had no preference for glass. Maybe glass just works as a gem substitute? Possibly it's a distinct type of demand from gems--I never had a chance to see what they were asking for in either case that it happened, because they just went and fetched everything all at once.</STRONG>

I'm entitled to an opinion and you're entitled to yours, so I'm not going to comment further on a post that basically just denounces my own playstyle as well because massively-expensive jeweled items are "worthless." People play games for reasons other than to be wildly efficient and successful, and you should've understood that is why I play when I brought up the fact I dislike metagaming.

[RPB]

quote:Originally posted by Oboro:
<STRONG>[...] a post that basically just denounces my own playstyle as well because massively-expensive jeweled items are "worthless." </STRONG>

I did no such thing. You yourself admit that you play for reasons other than simply to be effective; that's fine. However, several times now you have asserted that keeping a supply of spare gems on hand is "worthless", i.e. less effective than using all gems immediately. I merely countered that assertion. If maximizing effectiveness is not a concern for you, then feel free to ignore comparisons of strategic effectiveness--but don't proclaim comparisons of such that are erroneous. The way you play the game is perfectly fine; you have no need to justify it by trying to argue that it is more effective than any other style of play. If you are going to try to make such a justification, expect other people to disagree, particularly when you put forth no support for your argument that using all gems immediately is a more valuable tactic than saving some gems.

[Grue]

I just received the crappiest artifact ever. A talentless peasant got into a strange mood, and claimed a craftsman workshop, and asked for a shell. By luck, one of my dwarves had a turtle for breakfast. He got one shell and began his work. The result was:

Fereth "Beastshut", a  amulet (sic!)

This is a amulet. All craftsdwarfship is of highest quality. It is encircled with bands of turtle shell.

Well, at least he became a Legendary craftdwarf straight from a talentless loser he was before.

[TheOtherHorseman]

quote:When a dwarf gets a serious wound, though, they are likely to be maimed for life. It's not so strange for extremely tough, previously self-relient types of people to completely flip out when faced with that sort of thing.

It is rather irritating to have the wound-induced madness side of realism without the medicine side, of course. I'm fine with people being concerned when they're maimed.

I'll be less annoyed, however, when there is a cure what ails them besides drowning or starving them to death.

[Grue]

This is a Mangrove bucket. All craftsmanship is of the highest quality. It is encircled with bands of Mangrove. On the item are images of Mangrove trees in Mangrove.

Like, it's REALLY a Mangrove bucket! See? It's even got Mangrove trees drawn on it! So you won't mistake it for a Willow bucket or something.

[Sophismata]

quote:Originally posted by Grue:
<STRONG>This is a Mangrove bucket. All craftsmanship is of the highest quality. It is encircled with bands of Mangrove. On the item are images of Mangrove trees in Mangrove.

Like, it's REALLY a Mangrove bucket! See? It's even got Mangrove trees drawn on it! So you won't mistake it for a Willow bucket or something.</STRONG>

Someone clearly loved Mangroves.

[Slartibartfast]

quote:Originally posted by Grue:
<STRONG>This is a Mangrove bucket. All craftsmanship is of the highest quality. It is encircled with bands of Mangrove. On the item are images of Mangrove trees in Mangrove.
</STRONG>

This is a tin goblet. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. It is studded with tin. This object menaces with spikes of tin.

It is obviously made of tin. The question is, how are you supposed to drink out of a spiked goblet?

[Varil]

Maybe the spikes are hollow, and act kinda like spouts? Awkward, but better than the alternative(which probably involves bleeding).