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Author Topic: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist  (Read 75490 times)

dafinchy

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Re: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist
« Reply #195 on: April 24, 2009, 11:03:28 pm »

Seeing earlier arguments for dwarf power, slow pumps, etc., how about this suggestion... separate "Power" into Force and Speed?

WARNING: Potentially tl;dr. In summary, split machine requirements into force minimum, and power-for-full-speed. Use gears to turn low-force high-speed power into high-force low-speed power. Gear systems will need 4 orientations (or 6 to include vertical) for in-out management. Separate from current cornering Gear Assemblies. The sciencey bits are below, including a suggestion for human-gallows power.

All jobs require energy to do. Power is the rate at which energy is expended/generated. Now Energy can be defined by the distance over which a Force is applied, and Speed is the rate at which distance is covered. So, for the equations:

Power = Energy/Time          Speed = Distance/Time       Energy = Force*Distance

Power = Force*Distance/Time = Force * Speed

What's my point? To have a power level, say 9000 Watts, you could apply the force of a 900 Newton object, say a filthy human in earth gravity, at a constant speed of 10 metres per second. So a human falling at 10 m/s on a rope (preferably by the neck) would provide 9000W of power. You'd get the same power for a 90N object moving at 100m/s, or a large 9000N object at 1m/s, or a huge 90000N object (roughly 9 metric tonnes) at a leisurely 0.1m/s.

You can use gears to switch between these amounts. So while a dwarf walking in a hamster-wheel might go slowly, and not produce very much force (that would depend on weight), it could provide a lot of force even slower using gears (for raising a bridge?) or a small force very quickly (ventilation fans). This could be used to squeeze more versatility out of machinery. Each machine would have a force requirement (to overcome friction) which works much like power now, and if a machine isn't supplied enough force, it won't work, and the system stops. But each machine will still have a power drain, only now, if the total power needs are more than supply, things only slow down, not stop.

Essentially power rating will be the power required for normal speed. Conversely power surplus isn't wasted, it makes things go faster. So a supply of 20 dpu (dwarf power units), supplied at 20dfu (dwarf force, you get the idea) and 1 dsu (speed) would power machines with a total power rating of 40dpu at half speed. If, say, the force requirement was 80 dfu, the machines would stop, but gearing could bring the speed down to 1/4dsu, which would raise force to the right level, and the machines would continue. If more power was then supplied, the gears could allow faster working, until the machines are at full speed, and beyond.

The gears would, like gear assemblies, drain some power. They would also have a minimum force requirement (in). Thus, the balancing act is in the player's hands. Of course, players could construct "gearboxes" out of many differently-configured gears connected to levers. Because you don't want full throttle all the time. ...and sometimes you want "MAXIMUM SPEED!!!!" Just don't stall it.
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RAM

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Re: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist
« Reply #196 on: April 25, 2009, 08:12:27 am »

I concur.


I just feel like mentioning that this may make it harder for new people to figure out machines, but for now I like the idea...
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Vilien

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Re: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist
« Reply #197 on: April 25, 2009, 09:20:28 am »

The addition of any types of complicated machinery can only improve the Dwarf Fortress experience. No true player can feel satisfied unless he kills his enemy in a multitude of horrible, ingenious ways.
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Puck

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Re: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist
« Reply #198 on: April 25, 2009, 10:25:03 am »

Yes, it currently does, the newest command issued takes priority.

Are you sure? I thought the core of the pressure plate/floodgate problem was that commands issued while it's in the delay for an earlier command are ignored
Either way, it's nice that people seem to have the same issues with the plates as I do, and are thinking about a solution.

We "need" some sort of mechanic in place to make them work reliably without taxing the CPU too much, but I for one dont know if that's even a problem. It's just... the game would be indefinetly richer for me, if I could build everything I can think of with PP's, and boy, believe me, I can think of a LOT of stuff.

If that ever will get implemented, I'll call the first fort I build "waterworks" or something.

jaked122

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Re: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist
« Reply #199 on: April 25, 2009, 12:14:32 pm »

DWARVEN JACKHAMMER AWESOMENESS EMBODIED

RAM

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Re: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist
« Reply #200 on: April 25, 2009, 08:55:44 pm »

What we need is the ability to turn the main entrance into a conveyor belt that will intelligently sort all incoming material according to height, profession, item preferences, and equipment.

Nobles who like bone arrows get delivered to noble accommodation, nobles who like adamantine boats get delivered to the 'other' noble accommodation. Human and dwarven traders go one way, elves go another. Hoary marmots fall down a 20 z drop into the butchers shop, elephants go to the meeting hall. While goblins are delivered to the shooting gallery...
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Granite26

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Re: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist
« Reply #201 on: May 06, 2009, 03:42:54 pm »

Seeing earlier arguments for dwarf power, slow pumps, etc., how about this suggestion... separate "Power" into Force and Speed?

This has come up before (not sure where), and I think the conclusion was that it's a simple machine (gear) to exchange Speed for Force and vice versa.  Basically, short of voltage-esque reduction to reduce friction loss, what is the merit for tracking them seperately versus abstracting things to a single 'power-load'? 

Anyway, updated the OP

Added combustion engines as Power Producer
Added components suggestion for powered buildings (esp. liked the circ saw)
Added Pitfalls as example for pressure plates on same tile as other things
Clarified Capstan to include dwarf power
Added one type only as option for weapon traps

Fuses were already listed as a mechanism that 'fires' when available power drops too low (filling the role of Mechanical Switches.)

Off to add Pressure vs. Screwpump details...

dafinchy

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Re: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist
« Reply #202 on: June 08, 2009, 05:18:37 pm »

How about lifts/elevators? Could be handy for moving lots of items many z-levels. Or possibly an alternative way of getting into (and out) of coliseums?

As far as how, I'd suggest it being built like a bridge, then with ropes/chains. Something like the well's bucket might be used with regards to implementation.
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RAM

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Re: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist
« Reply #203 on: June 08, 2009, 08:54:50 pm »

I imagine that it would be on the more difficult side of things to have an effectively multiple z-level building, so I wouldn't get my hopes up anytime soon... But you do raise an interesting point about the well... But getting the AI to use it would be difficult again...

Also, I think that these have been mentioned before.
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dafinchy

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Re: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist
« Reply #204 on: June 10, 2009, 09:58:22 pm »

How about a dumb waiter-like setup? No creature movement, but a shifting of materials? Could probably contribute to the whole "burrows" idea. With regards to AI, I would expect it to be a lever-operated device anyway, at least to begin with. If there's ever an update that allows automation of lever-pulling under certain situations, that would then apply here too.
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Firnagzen

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Re: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist
« Reply #205 on: July 04, 2009, 01:01:52 am »

You know, give me the ability to create movable constructions and I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
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RAM

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Re: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist
« Reply #206 on: July 04, 2009, 02:44:40 am »

Seconded, and sigged.
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BeyondAllPronunciation

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Re: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist
« Reply #207 on: July 21, 2009, 01:29:26 pm »

Seeing earlier arguments for dwarf power, slow pumps, etc., how about this suggestion... separate "Power" into Force and Speed?
This has come up before (not sure where), and I think the conclusion was that it's a simple machine (gear) to exchange Speed for Force and vice versa.  Basically, short of voltage-esque reduction to reduce friction loss, what is the merit for tracking them seperately versus abstracting things to a single 'power-load'?  (...)

As I was about to suggest the same idea (all praise the search button!) I do have some arguments ready for it.

Using gears would be important whenever:
a) you don't have enough force to raise this enormous steel drawbridge you just built, but you're not in a hurry, so speed is not an issue.
b) you want to supply a lot of power to your spike traps (powered traps are a part of this thread, if I am not wrong) to let them go throught retract-skewer cycle at five times the 'usual' speed (whatever it might be) turning them into a true goblinmeatgrinder.

Summing up: gears good!
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Granite26

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Re: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist
« Reply #208 on: July 21, 2009, 02:19:12 pm »

I don't see how either of those systems require explicit gears, just that machines run at different speeds with different power supplies (and the gearing is abstracted).

I understand that real life applications can require a lot of work to do these things, but is there a reason that handwaving at the 'mechanism' requirement is not sufficient to cover this?

TheBeardyMan

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Re: Additional Mechanics/Traps Wishlist
« Reply #209 on: July 21, 2009, 03:44:47 pm »

An idea for waterwheels:

Depending on exactly where a waterwheel is constructed with respect to water flow, it could be:

1. Undershot: Constructed above flat running water, the same way that waterwheels must be constructed at present - the least powerful.
2. Pitchback: A waterfall of at least 1 z-level flows into/falls onto an end tile of the waterwheel and running water directly beneath is optional - more powerful than undershot, but less powerful than overshot.
3. Overshot: A waterfall of at least 2 z-levels falls onto the centre tile of the waterwheel and running water directly beneath is optional - the most powerful.
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