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[zwei]

I generally like your latest ideas, though I still have some ideas about the picture.

I often find myself wanting to limit available materials based on their value and/or quality. Having the option to open a selection window to set multiple limitations would be nice and being able to save a few sets of limitation criteria would be handy. Maybe you could have a list of, say, 5 criteria sets, say,

1. low quality
 {total value less than base value of exceptional quality base item}
2. high quality
 {low quality < total value < 1000 AND not an artifact AND less than 2 masterwork decorations}
3. unique
 {total value >= 1000 AND/OR multiple masterwork decorations AND/OR an artifact}
4. Megaproject level 1
 {(red AND stone) OR ((teal OR lime green) AND masterwork quality)}
5. Megaproject level 2
 {white AND stone}

6. Load from file
7. Replace above category from file
8. Save above category to file
9. Edit above category

The rules would probably not be displayed here, and would not need to be that complicated, and even if those were possible you would probably want a simplified version for when people didn't want to bother with that level of complexity. This would allow people to have a great list of different preferences that they can swap in as the work on different aspects of their fortress. You would want to display the name of the selection criteria as you are designating to check if you pressed the wrong button...

I still find the transparency of the menus kind of pointless, It just doesn't seem to be practical to look at the background. Could you try upping the transparency, I don't know, 20%? and changing the text to sme brazenly obvious colour, Bright Green would work, and making it somewhat transparent also/ Or giving up on the transparency and having undiluted text.
 I do prefer the light wedge to the dark wedge, but would it be possible to have a wedge that fades to completely transparent at the point it reaches its target. I figure that this would grant great visibility around the target while still giving a strong impression of what is selected, but I can't be sure unless I see it in action, and I don't really have any graphical programs that do that sort of thing. Even if it works it may be more complexity than you want in the display, it would certainly be much more number crunching then dwarf, miner = tile 018...

It occurs to me that there could be a whole siege 7 tiles away from your beds there and the minimap would stop you from seeing it. Maybe reserve some sort of warning graphic for the minimap to tell you about things that want to kill dwarves...

As for material selection goes, pressing "M" would change dialog, and there is lot of space for any kind of customization, and yep, i too envisioned this kind of compound rules.

Basicaly gui for making "select" statement from "database" of items in fortress. Experience player could simply type "where color=teal and value > 100" or anything more complicated

(note, this would be also usefull in stock screen, imagine ablity to filter stocks as "where material=any metal and size=narrow" when you want to designate post siege loot to melting)

Player could type it or just use gui to make it.

---

Transparency is there mostly for effect: it is very cheap way to add superfluous eyecandy (basically, when drawing gui background rectange, you just make aplha 0.1 instead of 0.0), do not concern yourself much with it

Besides, i would imagine better "eyecandy" would be 10% transaprent menus with blurred tiles under it which are trupped of colors and monochrome. Or even not that and just some kind of texture.

As you can see, i am explorign new ideas for vedge; i and still not convinced fading transaprency is good, mostly because it is so far only place in my screens without it, so it woud be kind of weird.

I thing some other way could be possible too. Slowly pulsing drop shaddow effect outside selected object or slowly pulsing from 50% to 150% brightness. Blurring/discoloring whatever is not selected, many possiblities, but none does exactly fit with rest of stuff.

---

I'd imagine minimap could have many "false color" versions. version where your allied units light up green and enemy as red, version where your construction light up or version where each tile has assigned color according to its value. Oh, and yes, minimap depicting wagon accessible areas.

There are possibly other cool maps: displayting distance from nearest food/booze stockpile, distance from closest bed, distance from closest water source, ow much have dwarves valked over certain tile.

Anything that would allow you to see flaws of your fotress setup (hmm, this area of fort is pretty far from food stockpiles but sees a lot of travel, maybe i should make mini dinner room in here somehwere)

[Jiri Petru]

Wow, this thread got resurrected. Thank you guys, and especially Zwei, for your suggestions. I'll try to find some time in the near future to reorganize the OP and include links to different proposals that we've seen here.

EDIT: First post updated

EDIT 2: Zwei, I love your colours and the looks of that interface. I wonder - how would you imagine the basic screen, where no workshop or building is selected? Just the basic interface. In your interface, i miss for example military controls, messages, and links to fullscreen menus (stocks, units, artifacts...)

EDIT 3:

Just a quick question, how do you remove a "remove ramp" designation?
By your interface using the "Destroy" feature will remove the ramp.

Well then... I guess this means there would have to be separate "Destroy" and "Cancel" buttons.

[zwei]

Here i go again:

First, minimap-modes:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Here are few modes of operation for minimap. Generally, they are there to allow quickly troubleshoot problems (water access, wagon access ...)

Seccond, here is "nothing is selected" screen:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 - bottom is commandline ("target mayor" command typed in), toogled by ~ key. commandline ought to allow alternate access to all commands and sometimes argumented commands

example: "designate masterpiece obsidian statue" will open construction dialog with material, material quality and building type already selected. much faster than navigating menus, even if it takes more keypresses.

or: "military activate" will activate all military squads, "military command squad bullfeathered" will open command view for that squad.

---

Above that is message log. messages are of couse linked so you can click on highlighted message to target relevant object.

---

Main menu is a bit reorganized:

Divided to sections for easier organization.

Construction section "D" is dialog i already posted: rehashed build/designate/zone/stockpile dialog, there is also target activation.

Social section is:

Military - roughly military dialog as we know it: setting up hierarchy and equipment, etc.

Jobs and Positions - nobles dialog mixed with dwarftherapist like dialog for assigning positions and activating labors en masse

Target creature: "v" function

Ecomony is:

Stocks - stocks screen. perks of this screen are global operations: you select group of items and you are able to perform operations of them (dump, melt, forbid), basically, ability to say "dump all items where material = pigtail and quality < masterpiece"

stocks screen woul also allow to flag items as "queue for trade": items flagged to be transported to trade deport when caravan appears.

livestock is basic animals menu from z screen. Of course also  "sql" enabled
("select all animals where specie = cat")

Management - dialog allowing to modify bother generals orders for implicit jobs (gather outside refuse: disable), material usage in jobs (cooking menu and stone menu basically) and jobs themselves.

Diplomacy

Foreign relations are just "c" screen.

Main menu for added comfort (quicksave autosaves of command)

Quick facts so that screen is not too empty

[sproingie]

I like the layout, though I might narrow the right-hand pane a bit.  That would squish the minimap, but it would have to deal with scrolling for large or odd-shaped embarks anyway.  I imagine any interface like this would be flexible with the ability to resize or at least cycle presets like the current game.

In messages, How about if the scrollbar only appears when it's relevant, i.e. when the mouse is over the message window, or the display is scrolled up?  If someone scrolls back, you'll want a visual indicator when new input arrives: I can't tell you how many times I've been in apps where I've scrolled back and forgotten about it and missed new messages.  The current game doesn't have to deal with this, since it pauses when you're looking at messages.

I've also noticed that the main display appears to be rendered on the entire window, with all the panes overlaying it being slightly transparent.  I'm not sure how useful that actually is, and would probably be distracting if there was a lot of activity near the menus.  I guess it depends on what's in the window, so maybe transparency could just be adjustable in-game.

[DDR]

I've briefly looked over this thread, and I like some of the ideas, I dislike some of the others...
I like the game as wholly text-based. It gives it an aura of retro awesomeness that it would just not have otherwise. Trying to mix the text-based game with nice graphical menus is a bit iffy. The styles clash badly. Perhaps if it were mostly text-based, but some items opened in a new graphical window? I find dwarf therapist really, really nice. It is a separate app, so it does not futz with DF's feel. And, that table style is more or less the only way to organize 100+ dwarves.

Can we make the memory hack (I assume..?) official, so it behaves nice? What we have now works impressively well with regards to dwarf organization and aesthetics.

BTW: If I wholly change my opinion later, that means 'slept lately'. I'm rather tired now.

[Jiri Petru]

Zwei: Thanks for the default view. What I don't like about menus like these is that they still feel too much like keyboard only menus. Actually clicking on the lines by mouse would be IMHO quite clumsy. First, clicking lines of text isn't that good as clicking buttons (also they seem to thin, and it would be easy to misclick). Second, the functions aren't differentiated visually, there's no notion of what is more important and what less. Generally, the important or more often used functions should be bigger and positioned somewhere in the more prominent parts of the screen, whereas the less frequent features should be smaller and somewhere in the corner... perhaps even hidden in submenus. While all of this essential for mouse users, I believe even keyboard users would benefit from better visual differentiation (if you don't remember a shortcut, you at least know in what part of the screen to look for it).

In other words, your menu still feels just like "a wall of text" or "a list of possible functions", not much like "interface".

BUT... (and this is a big BUT)

The greatest advantage of your approach is that is sticks very close to the present interface, and thus wouldn't require so much effort on Toady's part. Also, wall-of-texts are easy to modify and quick to redesign...

...

...I don't even know why I'm saying this.  Definitely not meant as a criticism of your work. Just thinking aloud, I guess.

[vins]

Hey please, DO something for wrestle in adventurer mode.


Nice work, but I prefer having separate groups for building than all buildings at once.

[zwei]

Zwei: Thanks for the default view. What I don't like about menus like these is that they still feel too much like keyboard only menus. Actually clicking on the lines by mouse would be IMHO quite clumsy. First, clicking lines of text isn't that good as clicking buttons (also they seem to thin, and it would be easy to misclick). Second, the functions aren't differentiated visually, there's no notion of what is more important and what less. Generally, the important or more often used functions should be bigger and positioned somewhere in the more prominent parts of the screen, whereas the less frequent features should be smaller and somewhere in the corner... perhaps even hidden in submenus. While all of this essential for mouse users, I believe even keyboard users would benefit from better visual differentiation (if you don't remember a shortcut, you at least know in what part of the screen to look for it).

In other words, your menu still feels just like "a wall of text" or "a list of possible functions", not much like "interface".

BUT... (and this is a big BUT)

The greatest advantage of your approach is that is sticks very close to the present interface, and thus wouldn't require so much effort on Toady's part. Also, wall-of-texts are easy to modify and quick to redesign...

...

...I don't even know why I'm saying this.  Definitely not meant as a criticism of your work. Just thinking aloud, I guess.

Oh god, he dares to criticize me, burn him! (hey, it is cool, if noone speaks their mind, sucky ideas never become "good" ideas)

1) I went by "more important is on top"/"more accessed on top".

Goal i had on mind was to structure menu (subgroup with labels) to make it easy to find whatever functionality you want: as learning curve is hard i rather have menu that is easy to navigate even if it does not follow ergonomic rules.

I would imagine players would eventually learn to access more important feature through use of keyboard and use mouse as pointing device for selections or drawing designations or as navigation tool (i would love, for example, mouse wheel changing displayed layer). Or by commandline

Also, for me consistency is important: hence, menu look and feel like submenus (ideally).

As you correctly note, clicking might be problem, i think that highlights of clickable items when mouse hovers can be partial solution, with that it is easy to see that you are really going to click on what you think you are.

---

And yes, you are correct, wall of text is easy to make. It is much easier to add new button if you do not have to draw icon for it, and easy to modify existing structure.

I think this is also important for our ideas: DF is game that is being developed and which is going to change a lot. Compromises allowing easy gui development/modification must be made or else develpment will show down horribly.

This is kind of why i chose to go with more of "just a facelift, essentially the same" than something more radical. As you saw at embark screen, small facelift can be quite powerfull.

I just go for good effort/result ratio, not necesarily great result

[SirHoneyBadger]

Constructive criticism should be a required course along the lines of English 101. It's tricky stuff, hard to do with delicacy.

[Strangething]

Adding a command line to DF is brilliant.

I really hope Toady opens up the interface, the same way he opened up the graphics for the 40d# revisions.

[zwei]

Repost from "What turns you off about DF?"

My suggestions is that the "relevant option" to control what items can be cooked is in the wrong place.  Instead of being in "Z-status", it should be in the kitchen workshop menu (or accessible from both places). In general, all the related options for some function (like cooking) should be accessible from the same place.

DUH, OF COURSE! This just makes ... sense.

Access animals menu from butchers shop
Access kitchen menu form kitchen
Access stones menu from masonry
Access stocks menu from office
Access justice menu from jail
Access autolooming option from loom
Access using_dyed_cloth from clothiers shop
Access refuse gathering setting from refuse stockpile
etc ...

Basically, game now uses too many disconected screens and hidden non-obvious setting for many items.

It make much more sense for those option for be accessible though workshops/stockpiles/rooms q menu:

* Obvious metaphor (change cooking setting in kitchens, it is simple to figure that out)
* Aviability (settings is only aviable when it is actually usefull)

[CobaltKobold]

Better is to make things cross-link, so things can be where they are now AND from the buildings, the jobs menu, etc.

[SirHoneyBadger]

zwei: First of all, you've done brilliant work. I think you're really helping define some end-results here. In other words, atleast some of what you're doing, I could visualize actually making it into the game.


For the sake of aesthetics, though, is there anything you could do towards the interface looking a little more organic? Just slightly is fine, but in the current state, it still gives the game something of the character of a spreadsheet. I've always hated that.

Staring at drab, sharp-rectangle-enclosed menus = something I normally get underpaid for.

Useability definitely should be given preference here, I'm all for that, but the "form over function" mantra doesn't have to equate Function's total userpation and annihiliation of Form.

I realize that we're just trying to rivet together the girders here, but after all, DF is something that we're meant to spend hour upon hour staring at-possibly also to advertize-and I feel it's important to build some sense of style into the thing, even up from these foundations.

It's not like we've got graphics--the interface is almost all we visually have. It wouldn't hurt to make it look atleast a *little* stylish. Might make it slightly easier to introduce to our friends/relatives, too.

I'd rather they be mystified as I rapturously ignore them in my worship of this incomprehensible-but undoubtably beautiful-puzzlebox altar; than be repulsed by my grotesque clutching addiction to a seeming second job. 

It's a question of Heaven or Hell--defined as surely as the originals are, atleast in part, cosmetically.

Skins would be a godsend.

Any thoughts on making the interface easy to skin? I really think that would be a good direction to go in.

I realize ofcourse that all of this is hypothetical, but it would be nice to do some laying of groundwork.

[zwei]

For the sake of aesthetics, though, is there anything you could do towards the interface looking a little more organic? Just slightly is fine, but in the current state, it still gives the game something of the character of a spreadsheet. I've always hated that.

Staring at drab, sharp-rectangle-enclosed menus = something I normally get underpaid for.

I personally do not like curved style stuff - they are trivial to do, but also pita to do. It also looks soooo 00's :-)

And curves also have bad issue of taking too much screen space to look good. I would envision 2-3 pixel cut offs in corners of rectangles as ideal.

As for ogranics look, I definitelly agree that excell look (more like 1980s excell predecesors look) is not atractive at all.

My own idea of final interface look is "Illuminated manuscript" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminated_manuscript ) look. Embark message was for example inspired by this.

Parchment background, stylish 14th century illustrations, decorated initials, drolleries. Possibly a bit cleaned up (see df.zweistein.cz for more organic take - borders and ciration blocks are softened by drolleries while initials break up "boring" text)

It's not like we've got graphics--the interface is almost all we visually have. It wouldn't hurt to make it look atleast a *little* stylish. Might make it slightly easier to introduce to our friends/relatives, too.

Being stylish is hard

There are many ways. I, for example love Fallout idea of "pipboy" mascot. It is used to illustrate skills and perks. It might look like pointless waste of screen space, but it is incredible way of adding atmosphere and explaining concepts without words.



That is why I would like to go for "1400s" manuscript look, because there little illustrations like that fel natural:

Skins would be a godsend.

Any thoughts on making the interface easy to skin? I really think that would be a good direction to go in.

Simple: embeed rich rendering engine (like webkit or anything that is easily hackable) and make menus into html templates. Let people go nuts with writing better templates and styling them :-)

[The_Kakaze]

I always play DF in windowed mode, so I would like to add (hopefully) that the menus, minimap, etc. should be detachable from the main play window and placed all around my screen, sort of like winamp or the various menus in photoshop.  I like being able to organize my menu structure and maps and things as I need them.  Otherwise, this restructuring of the games interface seems very well thought out.