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Author Topic: Religious Archetypes  (Read 9622 times)

Dvergar

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Re: Religious Archetypes
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2009, 01:42:44 am »

All in all this should be more about the dwarves than the gods right?  We want DF not Populous, so I would guess that the impact of religion would have to be small, or at least the supernatural part.
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Granite26

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Re: Religious Archetypes
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2009, 08:59:59 am »

All in all this should be more about the dwarves than the gods right?  We want DF not Populous, so I would guess that the impact of religion would have to be small, or at least the supernatural part.

If it weren't for the settling of New England, the Trojan War, the Crusades, 9/11,  and the thirty years war, I'd agree with you.

Rowanas

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Re: Religious Archetypes
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2009, 09:02:58 am »

You missed a few.

DF shouldn't be about the religion though. It's about the dwarves, and the gods are a part of the creation of the dwarves, but they aren't a major focus. Building temples to gods shouldn't be any more or less important than having a farm or bedrooms (ie, quite, but survivable without)
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Granite26

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Re: Religious Archetypes
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2009, 09:10:49 am »

I'm not worried about building temples... What I'm interested in is the evolution and effect of religion on actors (not just dwarves) personalities

Dvergar

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Re: Religious Archetypes
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2009, 11:31:04 am »

All in all this should be more about the dwarves than the gods right?  We want DF not Populous, so I would guess that the impact of religion would have to be small, or at least the supernatural part.

If it weren't for the settling of New England, the Trojan War, the Crusades, 9/11,  and the thirty years war, I'd agree with you.


Didn't say nothin' 'bout real life, plus the supernatural had nothing to do with any of those (except maybe Trojan War  ;D)

All I said was that as long as this game is Dwarf Fortress the game will be about our mining little dwarves, I think that a religion system that is too involved would wreck the game.  Religion should be kept small imo.
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Fieari

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Re: Religious Archetypes
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2009, 03:01:03 pm »

Actually, the game isn't about dwarves digging, it's about simulating a fantasy world.  Religion needs to be a huge part of that, since religion plays a huge part in fantasy literature.
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Felblood

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Re: Religious Archetypes
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2009, 06:12:31 pm »

Good game design has it's roots in building intuitive and fun connections between the various aspects of the game, something religion can provide, especially if it can tie every aspect of fortress life into an overarching activity that is larger than your dwarves or even your entire fortress.

The temple designation is the most intuitive connection. It ties the simple act of dwarves digging(carving out a space for a temple or shrine) into the evolution of civilization itself (religions and philosophies gaining/losing prominence).

To complete the circle, and give those activities meaning, the religions need to feed back and effect the fortress.

One form this could take would be a simple taboo, against a specific material in a specific item type. i.e. a religion with a taboo against eating a particular animal, would slightly complicate the process of feeding your dwarves, and force the player to provide a wider or specific variety of foodstuffs. Fun could ensue when the local cult starts refusing to eat kittens, leading to a shortage of non-cat foodstuffs, especially if you do all your baking with Kitty Crisco.

Notice that if the player does nothing, the cult just destroys itself and, once the tantrum spiral stops, ceases to be an issue; this only adds as much complexity as you're willing to put up with, as the goal of preserving/destroying religions(on the local or global level, your choice) doesn't have to interfere with the goal of keeping the fortress alive.

Likewise, followers of a religion could all demand a specific thing, ranging from just owning an idol of any sort, to wearing an amulet of a particular material(a use besides selling it, and possibly a reason to import a particular thing, that is less urgent than the current noble demands), to pouring out sacrificial wine, on their altar (which uses up booze and might offend dwarves or players who oppose waste). Very lucky players might find themselves with a cult that sacrifices kittens to their war god, a religion that is worth preserving, even if their war god is does not exist, or simply doesn't care about the kitten thing.

Another idea, that has more potential to annoy and us thus presented less forcefully, is for religions to occasionally venerate trades, to the point that their priests always have a particular job active, much like the dungeon master always has weaponsmithing and animal training. As the order manager get's refined this might not even do anything important. A less extreme doctrine might simply provide better work satisfaction to dwarves that follow the favored trade of their religion, and have other adherents be better disposed toward them.

These aren't enormous changes, but subtlety is the key here. Religion should be a pervasive thing, and have the potential to effect any aspect of fortress life. At the same time it's effects should be generally minor or slow, allowing the player to neglect it in the early stages of the fortress founding process. Above all religion should lend color to different fortresses, worlds, and even individual dwarves, making them more unique and filling them with life.

All this can easily be tied back into the goal of making late game play less dull, and more varied and challenging.
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Dvergar

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Re: Religious Archetypes
« Reply #67 on: July 27, 2009, 11:41:18 pm »

Actually, the game isn't about dwarves digging, it's about simulating a fantasy world.  Religion needs to be a huge part of that, since religion plays a huge part in fantasy literature.

I think you are overstating religions importance in fantasy literature, or at least how I think of religion, gods in most that I have read take a laid back approach, perhaps calling upon lesser mortals to go questing (like obtaining the amulet of Yendor  ;D).

But looking at some of the definitions of religion online by their definition it incompasses pretty much all of philosophy and all of the supernatural.

imo religion and its gods should remain distant and weak in DF.  Religion should only ammount to being part of each dwarves identity, dictating his philosophy and actions, not some dude on a thundercloud riding around smiteing.
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Felblood

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Re: Religious Archetypes
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2009, 12:42:39 am »

Nethack is probably a bad example, of a fantasy game that doesn't have a lot of influence from gods.

Not only are they the primary motive force of the plot, they are deeply woven into every mechanic through the #Pray command. With the gods on your side, you can literally survive indefinitely without food, just for starters.

Now, I wholeheartedly endorse being able to set the gods as disinterested entities, so utterly far beyond mortal life, that they an only think of dwarves and humans as pawns in a cosmic game. However, I don't think that's the only avenue that DF can explore, and I think it would be awesome to look at some of the more potent options, as the dev cycle progresses toward the distant goal of completion.
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The path through the wilderness is rarely direct. Reaching the destination is useless,
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--but you do have to keep walking.

HammerHand

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Re: Religious Archetypes
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2009, 01:46:30 am »

Actually, the game isn't about dwarves digging, it's about simulating a fantasy world.  Religion needs to be a huge part of that, since religion plays a huge part in fantasy literature.

I think you are overstating religions importance in fantasy literature, or at least how I think of religion, gods in most that I have read take a laid back approach, perhaps calling upon lesser mortals to go questing (like obtaining the amulet of Yendor  ;D ).

But looking at some of the definitions of religion online by their definition it incompasses pretty much all of philosophy and all of the supernatural.

imo religion and its gods should remain distant and weak in DF.  Religion should only ammount to being part of each dwarves identity, dictating his philosophy and actions, not some dude on a thundercloud riding around smiteing.

... And this opinion is exactly why the suggestion of allowing certain metaphysics to be toggled in the world parameters upon creation becomes interesting, if not downright important.  This thread suggests options more thanspecific features to see in every game.   Or, the way I understand it, you could just wait for your world to progress beyond the eras where gods do the kind of things you suggest.

I'm not particularly fond of metaphysical decay, but it seems to be part of the game's original scope and theme.  Hopefully this, too, could be toggled or scaled.
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Pilsu

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Re: Religious Archetypes
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2009, 03:44:32 am »

I don't think nonexistent gods are going to work when you can actually talk to gods in the game. No one's going to believe in Banjo is he doesn't speak like the rest of them
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Felblood

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Re: Religious Archetypes
« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2009, 05:34:43 am »

I don't think nonexistent gods are going to work when you can actually talk to gods in the game. No one's going to believe in Banjo is he doesn't speak like the rest of them

I think there are aspects of human nature that would surprise you.  ;)

Certainly, the way religion evolves is going to have to take heavily active gods into account.

Imagine a world with two types of gods. One type is very active in the material world, and all but the most stubborn acknowledge their existence, even if they don't worship them, or agree on their exact number. The other is very distant and uncaring; they have goals and motives that reach far beyond the material plane, and they don't often commune with mortals, if at all.

Now imagine a world that is identical, save that the second group of gods doesn't exist. How would the dwarves know?

Even if it isn't possible for the first of those two worlds to exist, it's okay for dwarves to believe that's where they live.


Edit:
Seven months later, I removed a comma.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 06:53:26 am by Felblood »
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The path through the wilderness is rarely direct. Reaching the destination is useless,
if you don't learn the lessons of the dessert.
--but you do have to keep walking.

Granite26

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Re: Religious Archetypes
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2009, 09:21:09 am »

imo religion and its gods should remain distant and weak in DF.  Religion should only ammount to being part of each dwarves identity, dictating his philosophy and actions, not some dude on a thundercloud riding around smiteing.

But don't you think that the ways the actors (not just dwarves) develop their philosophies is worth covering in worldgen?

Pilsu

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Re: Religious Archetypes
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2009, 07:41:22 am »

Why would you worship or even pretend the second group exists if you have the first group of gods that actually talk back when you pray? I think people would demand a little more proof from new religions if the old ones had some
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Granite26

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Re: Religious Archetypes
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2009, 07:49:31 am »

Why would you worship or even pretend the second group exists if you have the first group of gods that actually talk back when you pray? I think people would demand a little more proof from new religions if the old ones had some

No God exemplifies your belief system quite so well as the one you can assign any traits to.

(Take Toady's light hand in these forums and all the crap that gets put in his mouth if you don't believe me... Not that I don't think it's the right way to run the forums, but still)
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