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[Siquo]

I just googled and found that as the first link, I don't know the site. Thanks for the info

[Phmcw]

Anyway, you have both lost the main point of your argument.
Formudwarf's arguments are justified if most Muslim, or a fair share of them, support terrorism against the occident.
If so, it's just another way to say that they want war against us, but don't have the army to do so.

And it's just retarded.

Most Muslim country are very eagerly helping us in this so called war. Form Egypt, Morocco, from Pakistan to Indonesia, there is almost no Muslim government that doesn't cooperate with us.
And in most of these countries, there is clash between the moderate and the conservative, the conservatives being usually backed by their government.

Forumdwarf's rambling is just hill informed.

[Virex]

Anyway, you have both lost the main point of your argument.
Formudwarf's arguments are justified if most Muslim, or a fair share of them, support terrorism against the occident.
If so, it's just another way to say that they want war against us, but don't have the army to do so.

And it's just retarded.

Most Muslim country are very eagerly helping us in this so called war. Form Egypt, Morocco, from Pakistan to Indonesia, there is almost no Muslim government that doesn't cooperate with us.
And in most of these countries, there is clash between the moderate and the conservative, the conservatives being usually backed by their government.

Forumdwarf's rambling is just hill informed.

I thought Egypt, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia had problems with extremists opposing the governments?

[Phmcw]

It's complicated as always. There is some poeple more extremist then the government in Saudi Arabia, and a lot of poeple  who are more progressive and struggle to have a little bit of freedom.
Egyptian are quite angry with their government, and there is a lot of different side at work.
Pakistan is threatened by the Taliban, but a lot of poeple oppose them. Of course those who millit for human right are targeted by the extremist, the government and the US administration, who doesn't like to have militant whistle-blowers and other "annoyance" melding in they communication operation and point out every failures and abuses committed by them.
Same apply to Afghanistan.

Tunisia is very worked out against radical Islam but hold no love toward America, because A) they are supporting Saudi Arabia's government who are the main support of radical Islamic propaganda B) moderate are usually human right lovers.

[Forumsdwarf]

Its... interesting how Geert Wilders and his ardent supporters are fervously trying to make a martyr out of Theo van Gogh, all the while calling artists the 'freeloaders of society', and suggesting pretty much all subsidization for atrists to be cut off.

Just one of the many, many blattant inconsistencies Wilder's propaganda.

To me him and his followers (of which we seem to have one in this very topic) reek of extremism.

Theo van Gogh died for women's rights and artistic freedom.  To an atheist that's about as close to martyrdom as a person can get.
Subsidies are a wholly unrelated issue.  The right of an artist to make art without being threatened with violence is different from sticking taxpayers with the bill.  If you have trouble understanding that try to re-imagine your argument applied to, say, plumbers or butchers.  If radical vegans were threatening butchers it wouldn't have anything to do with whether or not meat should be subsidized.
I'm more a follower of Ayaan Hirsi-Ali than Geert Wilders.  Dutch politics are of no interest to me save where it intersects with her.  However flawed Mr. Wilders may be he has earned the endorsement of a very brave and historically important woman.

Saddam gassed and the Kurds and Iranians with American poison gas and weapons, given to him by the US, to be used against Iran.

Iraq got most of its chemical weapons from Singapore and conventional arms from the Soviet Union, with the second-largest share coming from France.  America's contribution in materiel was miniscule.
You also don't seem to know much about American-Kurdish relations: the Kurds are among our closest majority-Muslim allies because after Desert Storm we actually kept our word and enforced the no-fly zone.
As examples for why terrorists attack us go these are pretty weak.  Kurdish terrorists sometimes attack Turkey, but that's an entirely regional dispute not connected with either Islam or the War on Terror.

The Saudi royalty is kept forcefully in place by the Americans (a lot of the 9/11 terrorists are Saudis). If I was ruled by a dictator, and he was kept in place by another country, I'd resent that country as well. I'm not saying I condone their actions, but I understand their motivations.

For murdering Theo van Gogh and threatening the same to Salman Rushdie, Ayaan Hirsi-Ali, and Kurt Westergaard?  None of them are even Americans!
Never mind that we don't actually keep the Saudis in power, despite Osama bin Laden's apparently very convincing propaganda.  There's no Dutch base in Saudi Arabia.  What does a U.S. military base have to do with Muslims killing artists?

Theo van Gogh wasn't killed either for Iraqi arms sales or Saudi oil sales.  He was killed for creating a film advocating women's rights for Muslims.  You can't seriously be blaming American foreign policy for his murder?

[Siquo]

Theo van Gogh died for women's rights and artistic freedom.

You are not really familiar with his work, I guess.
He died because he was stabbed by a psycho, and made (often inferior) art meant to shock people (in which he succeeded). He was a hedonist and inherently self-destructive, not a Noble Warrior for the Freedom of Artists.

You also don't seem to know much about American-Kurdish relations: the Kurds are among our closest majority-Muslim allies because after Desert Storm we actually kept our word and enforced the no-fly zone.

That Kurds in general are not anti US doesn't mean anything. Saddam used american weapons given to him to fight Iran, against the Kurds and other people. That was WAY before any desert storm. The point is that US meddling has costed lives and keeps people poor. Saddam wasn't ousted until he nationalised the oil, and then tried to switch from dollars to euros. There you are, sitting in the middle of the desert, on top of a goldmine of oil, but any time you try to use it you get smacked by the Big US. That's where resentment is born. Resentment that, when fed, can grow to hatred of anything that even smells Western. Such as equal rights and democracy.

For murdering Theo van Gogh and threatening the same to Salman Rushdie, Ayaan Hirsi-Ali, and Kurt Westergaard?  None of them are even Americans!Never mind that we don't actually keep the Saudis in power, despite Osama bin Laden's apparently very convincing propaganda.  There's no Dutch base in Saudi Arabia.  What does a U.S. military base have to do with Muslims killing artists?
Theo van Gogh wasn't killed either for Iraqi arms sales or Saudi oil sales.  He was killed for creating a film advocating women's rights for Muslims.  You can't seriously be blaming American foreign policy for his murder?

Oh, I can. We were dragged into a war by spineless politicians, greedily and blindly following the US into an unwinnable and illegal invasion. This has not helped anything. It creates an image of hostility from the western world to the middle-eastern world. It just adds to the mix.

"Osama's propaganda"... There's a topic in this forum right now about conspiracy theories. Anything that doesn't fit your worldview is "propaganda from the enemy".

Ayaan is a loudmouth, frustrated and damaged by her upbringing (which wouldn't have been better if she hadn't been born a muslim), and unable to constructively look at the bigger picture. I'm glad she's gone, and she probably won't come back since by now she makes most dutch puke as much as your Palin does to USians.

Your and Wilders' generalisation of 1.5 billion people is what creates evil in this world. Were I the same as you, I'd call all USians evil, because they all want to kill all muslims! Or something. That's how stupid you really sound. And with this low ad hominem, which I tried to keep kind of civil, I'll leave you to your delusions.

[Forumsdwarf]

Theo van Gogh died for women's rights and artistic freedom.

You are not really familiar with his work, I guess.
He died because he was stabbed by a psycho, and made (often inferior) art meant to shock people (in which he succeeded). He was a hedonist and inherently self-destructive, not a Noble Warrior for the Freedom of Artists.

He can't be both?  Was Mozart a hack because he couldn't manage his money?  Ridiculous.

Saddam used american weapons given to him to fight Iran, against the Kurds and other people.

He used SOVIET weapons.  Did you even read my reply before repeating your misinformed propaganda?
America's contribution to Iraq's arsenal was miniscule.
But the Russian situation does happen to be an interesting case study in the Strong Horse Theory: Russia's penchant for responding to terrorism with massively disproportionate force seems to be paying off.  Nobody much talks about how the Soviets helped Iraq and kept the Middle East fighting, it's always what America did.  That says something about Russian counter-terrorism strategy.

Saddam wasn't ousted until he nationalised the oil, and then tried to switch from dollars to euros.

Preposterous.  Saddam was ousted after 9/11 because he wouldn't allow weapons inspectors in and kept shooting at our planes enforcing the Kurds' no-fly zone.
I'm not saying the switch to euros and subsequent orgy of corruption didn't have its role to play in the invasion, but it was an enabler, not a motive.  The Oil-for-Food Scandal was a diplomatic boon at a critical time when we needed to convince allies to join a military coalition outside the U.N.  The extravagance of Kojo and friends made the illegitimacy of the U.N. self-evident.

Theo van Gogh wasn't killed either for Iraqi arms sales or Saudi oil sales.  He was killed for creating a film advocating women's rights for Muslims.  You can't seriously be blaming American foreign policy for his murder?

Oh, I can.

And what's wrong with that is what's wrong with mainstream Muslims: they use grievances real or imagined against American foreign policy to excuse terrorist attacks, intolerance, violence, and murder.  Those excuses provide the extremists with moral and social legitimacy.
But those grievances are not the real problem; they're excuses.  "If only the Americans hadn't invaded Iraq Theo van Gogh would still be alive?"
Garbage.
It's the attitude of people who would pull out their list of grievances whenever there's a terrorist attack which is the real problem.

"Osama's propaganda"... There's a topic in this forum right now about conspiracy theories. Anything that doesn't fit your worldview is "propaganda from the enemy".

Well if it comes out of Osama bin Laden's mouth it's going to have a slant, isn't it?

Ayaan is a loudmouth, frustrated and damaged by her upbringing (which wouldn't have been better if she hadn't been born a muslim), and unable to constructively look at the bigger picture. I'm glad she's gone, and she probably won't come back since by now she makes most dutch puke as much as your Palin does to USians.

Your opinions of Ms. Hirsi-Ali thus expressed help me to calibrate what you've said about Mr. Wilders.

Your and Wilders' generalisation of 1.5 billion people is what creates evil in this world.

You don't even understand what that generalization is.  I don't deny that there is one, and perhaps that in itself is wrong, but you certainly don't understand it.  If you did you wouldn't have said this:

Were I the same as you, I'd call all USians evil

I tried to keep kind of civil

You were much more successful with your previous message.

[Virex]

Saddam used american weapons given to him to fight Iran, against the Kurds and other people.

He used SOVIET weapons.  Did you even read my reply before repeating your misinformed propaganda?
America's contribution to Iraq's arsenal was miniscule.
But the Russian situation does happen to be an interesting case study in the Strong Horse Theory: Russia's penchant for responding to terrorism with massively disproportionate force seems to be paying off.  Nobody much talks about how the Soviets helped Iraq and kept the Middle East fighting, it's always what America did.  That says something about Russian counter-terrorism strategy.

Just chiming in to say that Russia has far more problems with terrorism in the border provinces then the UK and Spain, who have been stern but not overly violent against their respective groups (ETA and IRA). Same happened with the RAF in Germany.

[Phmcw]

And what's wrong with that is what's wrong with mainstream Muslims.

And that point you as an ignorant extremist, forumsdwarf.

"Selon les déclarations écrites de l'Irak à l'ONU en 2002 sur son programme chimique, tout le matériel et les connaissances ayant pour but de mettre au point ce programme viennent des pays suivants : Singapour, Pays-Bas, Égypte, Inde, RFA, Luxembourg, Brésil, France[15], Autriche, Italie et USA. Il est à souligner par contre que l'URSS ne semble avoir fourni aucune aide à l'Irak dans ce programme[16]." wikipedia

And that point you as an ignorant extremist, forumsdwarf.

Saddam used american weapons given to him to fight Iran, against the Kurds and other people.

He used SOVIET weapons.  Did you even read my reply before repeating your misinformed propaganda?
America's contribution to Iraq's arsenal was miniscule.
But the Russian situation does happen to be an interesting case study in the Strong Horse Theory: Russia's penchant for responding to terrorism with massively disproportionate force seems to be paying off.  Nobody much talks about how the Soviets helped Iraq and kept the Middle East fighting, it's always what America did.  That says something about Russian counter-terrorism strategy.

Just chiming in to say that Russia has far more problems with terrorism in the border provinces then the UK and Spain, who have been stern but not overly violent against their respective groups (ETA and IRA). Same happened with the RAF in Germany.

And that point you as an ignorant extremist, forumsdwarf.

Conclusion : you're an ignorant extremist forumsdwarf.

[kuro_suna]

I'm pretty sure most of Saddam's chemical arsenal would have come from the United States since anything from the Soviets would have been used up during the war with Iran.

(Though technically they didn't get chemical weapons, just the materials to make them and funding to do so)

[Phmcw]

I'm sorry I gave my citation in french.

"On May 25 1994, the U.S. Senate Banking Committee released a report in which it was stated that "pathogenic (meaning 'disease producing'), toxigenic (meaning 'poisonous'), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce." It added: "These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction."[30]

The report then detailed 70 shipments (including Bacillus anthracis) from the United States to Iraqi government agencies over three years, concluding "It was later learned that these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the UN inspectors found and recovered from the Iraqi biological warfare program."[31]

Donald Riegle, Chairman of the Senate committee that authored the aforementioned Riegle Report, said:

    U.N. inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs. ... The executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control sent Iraq 14 separate agents "with biological warfare significance," according to Riegle's investigators.[32]" wikipedia

also http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/whoarmediraq.pdf and http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/nyt-041303.gif

USSR is uninvolved in Iraq's chemicals weapon program. It has been backed by the nato. And China, and India, and ... Brazil for some reason.

[Siquo]

I love it when I've got a fact-finding-and-insult-generating team behind me 

Take that, forumsdwarf!

[Grimlocke]

Not that we are anywhere near on topic, but it currentely seems Wilders' party wont make it into the coalition. Today is a sunny day!

All negotions pretty much failed due Wilders being unable to come up with any sensible ideas, (tax on headscarfs? reeducation camps?) nobody wants to cooperate with the clown.

Now his parties job will be to complain about things as part of the opposition. I guess thats what hes good at.

His voters of course feel 'deeply insulted', they feel democracy utterly failed because their 16% didnt count for more then the remaining 84%.

Now to hope this polularity dies out before the next elections.

[Siquo]

I was actually kind of hoping they'd make it into the coalition, just to see it blow up a month later, like what happened to their spiritual predecessor, the LPF.

Now he can do what he has always done: Whine from the sideline without taking responsibility.

[Forumsdwarf]

"On May 25 1994, the U.S. Senate Banking Committee released a report in which it was stated that "pathogenic (meaning 'disease producing'), toxigenic (meaning 'poisonous'), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce." It added: "These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction."[30]

The report then detailed 70 shipments (including Bacillus anthracis) from the United States to Iraqi government agencies over three years, concluding "It was later learned that these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the UN inspectors found and recovered from the Iraqi biological warfare program."[31]

Donald Riegle, Chairman of the Senate committee that authored the aforementioned Riegle Report, said:

    U.N. inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs. ... The executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control sent Iraq 14 separate agents "with biological warfare significance," according to Riegle's investigators.[32]" wikipedia

also http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/whoarmediraq.pdf and http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/nyt-041303.gif

USSR is uninvolved in Iraq's chemicals weapon program. It has been backed by the nato. And China, and India, and ... Brazil for some reason.

First, I never mentioned biological weapons, second, Iraq never used them, and third, once we realized the medical supplies we were sending were being used to make WMD's we stopped shipments.

While it was naive of us to provide medical supplies of such a sensitive nature they had nothing to do with the chemical weapons Saddam actually used in combat.

The WMD's Saddam actually used -- mostly mustard gas with some assorted nerve gasses thrown in -- didn't come from us.  Had he dropped an anthrax bomb things would be different, but he didn't.  Nice try.

What this means is that yet another "justification" for Muslim terrorism is hogwash, yet the terrorists and their apologists go on believing they are the victims of things America never even did.  And somehow that makes it "understandable" to threaten and kill people who write books, make movies, or draw satirical cartoons?

Not a chance.