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Author Topic: American Election Megathread - It's Over  (Read 720634 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4365 on: August 05, 2012, 07:08:10 pm »

1. Have the properties of moon rocks significantly increased the quality of life of anyone?
Science isn't about significantly increasing the quality of life for people, it is about learning objective things concerning our reality. Improving our quality of life is a side effect of knowing what we're doing instead of flailing about blindly.

You want a practical application? Fine. Knowing the properties of moon rocks allows us to increase our knowledge of Earth's geological history (being that the moon consists of matter ejected from Earth long in the past) and allows us to better plan future moon missions. This will make it easier for us to build an outpost or colony on the moon. Before you ask why we should ever do that, it is so we may make our species more able to avoid extinction and to harvest resources, such as the HE3 on the Lunar poles. Before you ask what that is for, nuclear fusion.
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2. I can expect it to not make multi billion dollar failures repeatedly without consequence.
Perhaps you missed the memo, but space is the most deadly environment out there. Our method of reaching it is very dangerous. Shit will happen. The shit that happens will be expensive because this is a relatively new and high-tech field. The failures of the present, however, are nothing compared to the explosive madness of the early space programs of both the US and USSR, where almost as many rockets exploded on the launch pad as managed to get into space.
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3. "50 years of science and technology" is rather vague. Do you think there would be no science and technology without NASA?
As we told you before, there is an entire magazine for NASA's innovations alone. Go read it if you want more specifics.
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For reference, I combined the budgets of NASA from 1962 to 2012 adjusted for inflation, the source of which can be provided on request. True, it isn't entirely fair to do it that way, but then it isn't entirely fair to point out every success NASA has made in the past 50 years and compare it to a single year's budget either.
And if we took the DoD's budget from 1962 to 2012 adjusted for inflation and added it together?
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Eagle_eye

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4366 on: August 05, 2012, 07:21:18 pm »

Great Justice:

1. That's irrelevant. Not everything has practical applications, and we certainly don't know all of the applications of what we've discovered about the solar system yet. The benefit of NASA is that it provides a need for higher quality materials than are used on Earth. NASA creates them at tremendous expense, and once the groundwork is laid, the rest of the world can reap the benefits. Space exploration is in its infancy. Nothing is going to have the same utility this early on as it will later, and the fact that we have so much practical benefit would seem to suggest that future developments will continue or improve on the trend. For example, gunpowder. Early gunpowder weapons were absolutely awful. They would frequently kill the user, were less reliable than bows and crossbows, and expensive. Nonetheless, they remained in use, and today they obviously far outstrip any other conventional weaponry. Another example: colonization. None of the early colonies in the Americas were profitable. Roanoke was assimilated by the natives, Jamestown spent years starving to death, Hispaniola provided returns for a few years before Spain transformed it into an empty hellhole. The payout to those countries a few hundred years later, however, was absolutely immense. By taking the longer view, they sacrificed some short term power for a tremendous return. You can't simply look at whether something is viable at the moment, but at it's potential.

2. Again, in establishing any new technology, or in this case, an entire branch of technology, is going to be plagued with failure and be costly in the short run. If companies go out of business whenever they mess up, long term development is going to take a lot longer, because they are not going to share their research with competitors when they go under. The only ways for technology to advance would be through a spectacular string of good luck for one company, or corporate espionage. Being able to fail without losing everything is an asset, not a disadvantage. A few billion dollars is nothing compared to the potential that space holds. Earth is going to run out of resources eventually, and it will likely be before we've managed to sober up and start being sustainable.

3. Here's a list of prominent technologies that were either developed or advanced by NASA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spin-off_technologies . Seems like it's worth 750 billion to me.
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alway

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4367 on: August 05, 2012, 07:26:35 pm »

750 billion for the entire 50 year space program? So, 2-3k per US citizen then for the entire 50 year space program? That's a hell of a good deal. The value of inspiring kids to go into tech and science fields alone outweighs that cost.
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Kilroy the Grand

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4368 on: August 05, 2012, 11:04:45 pm »

I don't actually feel that great about cutting the DOD's funds. So many countless advancements have been made in the quest to kill other people more efficiently. Pesticides, computers, plastics, metallurgy, not to mention nuclear power, Without the need to kill a few million japanese and germans we wouldn't even have NASA. Although we really should thank the nazi's for doing research into rocketry though, those "recruited" former nazi's helped the Mercury 7 get to space.

I think a far better think to cut would be foreign aid and to slash welfare, making sure that those that actually needed it, received it. But hey, maybe I'm crazy for thinking people shouldn't get paid $8> an hour for doing nothing, and in some states make more money than the average teacher does. Some people need a helping hand, I'll admit that, I even think WIC is a great program (food stamps are laughable). But according to my personal experience, most people on welfare need to get a fucking job, stop selling their state subsidized kerosene, and stob buying brand new ATVs.
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kaijyuu

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4369 on: August 05, 2012, 11:13:12 pm »

Can't tell if satire.
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Kilroy the Grand

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4370 on: August 05, 2012, 11:55:13 pm »

Can't tell if satire.

The first part? Yeah kinda. The second part? No. My family was on government aid for a few months, My father hated every minute of it. I feel nothing but contempt for people who think it's okay to live of the government's teat indefinitely. I don't believe that entire generations should be able to do literally nothing and get paid for it. Welfare is just a crutch, those that are able to work and choose not to, should be allowed to starve to death.

Although you might not have had as much contact with white trash as I have. I think it would be a learning experience for a lot of people, my heroin junkie cousins included.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4371 on: August 05, 2012, 11:58:27 pm »

No one deserves to starve to death, even if they are lazy white trash heroin junkies.

Anyway, under current US welfare law you can only have two years of welfare concurrently and five years over your entire life, so you can't live off of it indefinitely.
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kaijyuu

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4372 on: August 06, 2012, 12:04:13 am »

Life isn't something you should have to "earn." Note the "should" in that line though, as I realize that isn't always practical. But when it is... and you'll have a hard time arguing it isn't so in the richest countries in the world...
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For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Eagle_eye

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4373 on: August 06, 2012, 12:56:17 am »

Just because someone isn't born with the talents, or even fails to develop the work ethic necessary to sustain themselves doesn't mean that they deserve to die. I feel like death is trivialized in our culture. It shouldn't be. Everything that person was, their personality, their memories, everything, is destroyed. We don't even always put people to death for murder. Laziness is not a crime, and while it is harmful to society, it is nowhere near on the same level of immorality as murder or torture. Suggesting that people should die for that is absolutely insane. If you've gone that far, you've completely dehumanized them. You need to remember that these are people, and while they may not be as virtuous or lucky as you, they have just as much of a right to exist. We need to expand the welfare state, not shrink it. Is it fair that an infinitesimally small subset of the population should have 20000 square foot mansions, multiple houses, seafaring yachts and private jets, while thousands of people die every year from exposure in one of the richest countries on Earth? We absolutely have the power to avoid any unnecessary deaths like that, and it really wouldn't be that expensive. Build free housing tenements, and you'll be pumping plenty of new jobs into the economy. Provide job training, and some of those people you claim are unwilling to work might find themselves working after all, if they now get paid a reasonable amount. Give them enough free food to be healthy, and perhaps they'll have more energy, and won't be that lazy. Provide the drug addicts with free rehabilitation, and they'll be able to be productive in society again. I think you underestimate just how much untapped wealth there is in this country. If we actually taxed assets of super rich parasites, instead of letting them squirrel it away in the caymans or wherever they have a tax haven, we'd have enough money to sustain a welfare state. If we forced employers to pay people a reasonable wage, there wouldn't be nearly the same need for welfare. Minimum wage is far from enough to actually sustain a person, unless they live a less than healthy lifestyle. Blaming unemployment on laziness, while true in some cases, is in general just a tool of the rich to encourage division amongst their subordinates. The real problem are the exploitative conditions that permeate American society. The median  income is around 30k a year. Half of people therefore make less than that. That is hardly enough money to raise a family on, or to go to college on, or to pursue anything beyond mere survival.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 12:58:46 am by Eagle_eye »
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SalmonGod

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4374 on: August 06, 2012, 05:02:23 am »

Last I checked, median income is actually 26k.

I won't deny the existence of white trash, but I also don't believe they deserve to die.  It makes absolutely zero sense to let anybody, no matter who they are, go homeless and hungry while food and shelter also go to waste.  Zero fucking sense.

We need to get past this deeply ingrained idea in our culture that a person doesn't deserve to live unless they work, more specifically unless they work at a "job".  Lack of work is not the problem and neither is the lack of work ethic.  Broken economics and corruption are entirely to blame.

I have intelligent and respectable college graduate friends who struggle to find any job, even for minimum wage.  One of my friends was only able to get a job at Wal-Mart by earning a social favor with family of a manager there, where he had been previously turned down for being "over-qualified".  And in a time when jobs are so hard to find, most families need two to get by.

There are two problems here.  First, the concept of "jobs" in our society is total bullshit.  Having a job does not necessarily mean you contribute anything to society, which I understand to be the basis of the assumption that if you don't have a job that you aren't earning your keep.  A job means only one thing:  making profit for somebody wealthier than you.  Second, our society is so productive that not everybody needs to work, or everybody needs to work very little.  There are a large and ever-increasing number of jobs out there right now that are complete wastes of time that benefit nobody, and only exist because need to have even a worthless "job" to justify their own existence.

I'll use my job as an example.  I work for the customs brokerage wing of a major shipping corporation.  My job provides absolutely zero tangible benefit to society.  I contribute to the shifting around of numbers in a giant imaginary number game.  My contribution is that I take specific bits of information from one document and copy them into another document.  That is how I spend 40 hours every week.  If my job didn't exist, there would be no less production of stuff in the world, and stuff would actually have an easier time getting around to wherever it needs to go.  Even assuming my job is worth anything, it could be eliminated almost effortlessly by part restructuring and part automation.  Finally, people do everything they can to prevent this worthless job from being eliminated.

My job exists for only a couple stupid reasons.  First, tariffs exist for the manipulation of markets, the merits of which are an entirely different debate.  More importantly, massive overbearing amounts of fluff paperwork continually build up around this process, to the point that special education and a license is required to process it.  An individual can extend that license to people working under them, as is done where I work.  I process this paperwork, and the company charges customers a fee for that process.  I have absolutely zero personal power to negotiate the terms of my employment, so I get paid an incredibly small portion of the revenue my work generates.  My manager and I have crunched the numbers together before, and determined that I make my entire year's salary worth of profit for the company in about a week on average.  My job is an absolutely miserable experience and a horrible waste of human life and potential, and I would seriously choose to live in a box instead if I didn't have a family to care for.  I've complained openly about how the conditions of the workplace or pay should be adjusted, or about how the work itself is worthless and should at least be automated.  Everybody agrees but then hushes me down aggressively, because they are too afraid of endangering their job and thus their ability to justify their own survival in this society.

And there is the core of the issue.  We are a population trapped in a cycle of exploitation.  We are forced to impoverish ourselves by funneling wealth upward into the hands of those already wealthier than ourselves, under the threat that if we don't we will be absolutely impoverished into nothing on the spot.  This is what a "job" is.  Jobs should not be so worshipped in our culture and politics, nor pursued as an end unto themselves.  Work should be done because it accomplishes something beneficial.  When work is finished or otherwised becomes obsolete, that should be a good thing for everyone.  Against all logic, that is exactly the opposite of how things are in our world today. 

As long as we continue living this way, we could bury the world in food and it wouldn't matter.  The nature of our system is such that there would still be a class of people legally barred from partaking of the food going to waste literally all around them, because it all belongs to people who only share when it fetches a profit.  This an extreme example, but it's directly analogues to what is going on in the world today.  IIRC, there are 6 empty homes for every homeless person, and the majority of the food we produce goes to waste.  In these circumstances, who fucking cares if white trash don't go out of their way to make rich people richer?  Let them fucking have whatever's going to waste anyway.  To think that they should die instead is just plain bloodthirsty.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 05:10:51 am by SalmonGod »
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mainiac

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4375 on: August 06, 2012, 08:23:22 am »

It's very strange that as we get better at producing stuff as a society we don't do what we've become good at.  Because we are better at producing stuff, a lot better.  People grumble that "everything is made in china" but that's only half the story.  Modern manufacturing is actually really really good at making stuff.  Look at an auto plant where they make 1 car per every three workers a day.  Look at lowly plastic injection molding which can fabricate in seconds something that could take an hour of labor a century ago.  Food is even more extreme.  A handful of farmers could easily feed an entire nation using only part of our arable land.  Logically it should be possible to feed every person in the country and drown them in manufactured goods quite easily if we just devoted a decent fraction of our national labor to it.

But we don't do that.  Instead we devote more and more effort to tracking stuff that logically we should care less about tracking.  And we insist that people work even if there is little socially beneficial work for them.  An auto worker's labor is clearly worth more then society then her or his compensation.  Someone at the restaurant doesn't produce much more then their measly compensation.

There isn't any easy answer to this question but it seems obvious that we could be doing better.  Pretty much every other modern country has a bigger percentage of the workforce in manufacturing then we do.  The workday isn't growing any shorter even as we grow more efficient.  The room for growth is pretty clear.
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Nadaka

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4376 on: August 06, 2012, 09:21:38 am »

Welfare may be a crutch, but if you have a sprained ankle or a missing leg, sometimes that crutch is an absolute necessity if you expect to keep walking. A crutch isn't a bad thing.
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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4377 on: August 06, 2012, 09:42:40 am »

As soon as someone declares that "we should slash foreign aid" I know they have never so much as glanced at the budget. "Foreign Aid" as it is generally reported, is an absurdly small quantity of the federal budget. Attacking it as if it were any of the big three expenses (Medicare, Medicaid, DoD) is like using a thimble to bail out a ship with no bottom.
Military aid, however, is not always listed with civil aid, and includes everything from the vast number of bases like the one protecting Germany from Russian occupation, and the endless supply of arms for Israel.
These still don't compare to the DoD budget as a whole, or the entitlements of the previous few generations, but it's still vaster than the civilian aid budget by far.
I generally support research, but often I see a strange policy where the government pays men to design even bigger, better, air superiorirty, depleted-uranium-firing aircraft carriers. Meanwhile, our enemies' most technologically advanced vehicle is a camel with a flashlight taped to it. Surely, this does not demand such a large military R&D budget.
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Zangi

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4378 on: August 06, 2012, 10:08:21 am »

Slashing Foreign Aid is a feel good proposal... >.>
Yes, I would not mind it at all...

Our DoD definitely could use some trimming... and for the logical military mind... they want to stay ahead of the other big power... China.  The current cockfight over the seas south of China ain't going to be helping much.
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RedKing

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Re: American Election Megathread
« Reply #4379 on: August 06, 2012, 10:16:58 am »

It actually takes a fair bit of money and research to "scale down" for asymmetric warfare. That transition has been in the works for at least 15 years now. Ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, we knew that the majority of our future combats would involve enemies who absolutely could not stand before us. But they could disperse and wage guerilla warfare and our Cold War-era force was ill-equipped for that. It's like trying to fend off a swarm of gnats with a bazooka. So we've spent decades and billions of dollars figuring out how to reconfigure our forces for less bazookas and more flyswatters.


Of course, one fear now is that if there's ever a serious engagement with China, we're going to wish we still had that "big war" Army instead.

The other problem is that technology is a force multiplier. A HUGE one. But we've become so dependant on that force multiplier to tilt the odds our way that we're neglecting a lot of basics. Take away that multiplier and our army might not be able to stand up so well against competitors. Most of Chinese defense policy vis-a-vis the United States hinges on denying us our fancy toys if shit ever goes hot. Take away GPS, take away remote drones, take away EWACS....the US would paralyzed in combat. There's a growing countercurrent within the Armed Forces that wants us to become less reliant on our technology because it's becoming an Achilles' heel.
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