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[Urist_McDrowner]

Or maybe, they don't believe it because it isn't true.

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43023

Medicaid and Children's Insurance is still 1 and 1/4th GDP in 2030

Don't you just hate it when those silly little facts get in the way of rhetoric?

Oh look! Medicare spending as a percentage of GDP actually goes up under the Ryan plan! Contrast that with Obama, who cut hundreds of billions from Medicare over the next ten years.

Your buddy Obama thinks it is annoying too. That's why, he sent Eric Holder and the ATF to go make rhetoric a fact with Fast and Furious, resulting in countless deaths. Who cares how many bodies they have to clamber over to get on the presidential pedestal?

[mainiac]

Or maybe, they don't believe it because it isn't true.

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43023

Medicaid and Children's Insurance is still 1 and 1/4th GDP in 2030

Yes, "Medicaid and SCHIP" are 1.25% of GDP, compared to 5.7% in current projections.  How does he do this?  Reforming insurance?  Bringing down physician payments?  Negotiating better prices on drugs?  No he does none of these.  In fact he has absolutely no program in place to ensure that these programs function.

Medicaidand S-CHIP refer to a pair of program by which the states receive federal funds towards the healthcare of the young, poor and disabled so long as the state have programs in place that help these groups sufficiently.  Ryan eliminates both of these programs and replaces them with "block grants."  The block grants are just money transfers to the state without all that pesky needing to actually provide essential care to the citizens.  So he removes the funding for this law (the states can use the much smaller block grants as they please.)  He removes the targets of this law.  He removes the legal and administrative structures.  All he does is appropriate the name for another program that achieves nothing resembling the same results.

The other remarkable thing about Ryan is that he can do completely shameless maneuvers like this and people actually believe him just because he uses fig leafs like keeping the names while eliminating the policy.  People actually see that he proposes a 79% cut in funding for a program and think he is being realistic.  That is despite not advancing a single notion on how to actually bring down the total cost of healthcare.  In fact by moving towards less effective negotiating structures he would actually increase the total cost of this healthcare.  The only "good" thing about this change is that it would shift costs onto the poor paying out of pocket so as to free up money for more tax cuts for the rich.

Don't piss on my boot and tell me it's raining.  And don't repeal Medicare and S-CHIP and tell me that they're preserved despite having no funding or targets.

Let me try this by metaphor because those always work so well.

Suppose you work for a company which requires you to drive around a lot for work so they have a policy of giving you a rental car for your work.  Now one day they decide to cut costs so they take away your rental car and give you a buss pass.  In a sense that's keeping the policy of providing your transportation.  It's a really crappy downgrade but they are still providing a modicum of transportation.  Well that's not equivalent to what Ryan is doing.  What Ryan is doing is like taking away your rental, giving you a yearly bonus and then making that yearly bonus rapidly decline in size with every passing year.

Hey, maybe you prefer your bonus.  Maybe it's even a better policy in the long run.  But it means that your company is no longer involved in providing you with transportation.

Ryan is doing something like the rapidly diminishing bonus.  He keeps the names "Medicaid" and "S-CHIP" but they are no longer programs related to insurance healthcare is available for the poor, young and disabled.

[Urist_McDrowner]

You make a lot more claims than you provide sources.

Actually, current projections have it as 0%, as the economy won't exist after 2027 according to the CBO. But hey, I won't make unfounded allegations or claims.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/5/cbo-federal-debt-double-15-years/?page=all

We have twice the debt of our GDP in 2027. How exactly DID that work for 170% Debt-GDP Greece?







Oh. That bad, huh?

[mainiac]

I'm sorry, is that an argument that block grants for state governments is the same thing as preserving medicaid and S-CHIP?

[Urist_McDrowner]

I'm sorry, is that an argument that block grants for state governments is the same thing as preserving medicaid and S-CHIP?

That depends, is that you dodging having to provide sources and address the point, that allowing things to continue as they are will not work and that's exactly what Obama plans to do?

Oh look, here's me providing more sources.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_f20ZDBj5k

[MetalSlimeHunt]

To be fair, Greece has a lot of Communists, Anarchists, and Fascists who all hate each other, the moderates, and the government, along with a history of civil instability. To say that it is a volatile situation is an understatement.

[Reelya]

Do you know why all those projections of the economy crashing go to 2037?

http://ruk.ca/content/us-budget-and-2037

In this well-produced video about the U.S. budget, U.S. Congressman Paul Ryan says “I asked the Congressional Budget Office to model the economy going forward, so they have these computer programs that simulate the U.S. economy; the computer program crashes in 2037 because it can’t conceive of any way in which the U.S. economy can continue because of this massive burden of debt.”

This may very well be true. But I’m wondering whether the simulator might be crashing, instead, because of the well-known 2038 problem, described in Wikipedia like this:

The year 2038 problem (also known as the Unix Millennium Bug, Y2K38, Y2.038K, or S2G by analogy to the Y2K problem) may cause some computer software to fail at some point near the year 2038. The problem affects all software and systems that both store system time as a signed 32-bit integer, and interpret this number as the number of seconds since 00:00:00 UTC on Thursday, 1 January 1970. The furthest time that can be represented this way is 03:14:07 UTC on Tuesday, 19 January 2038. Times beyond this moment will “wrap around” and be stored internally as a negative number, which these systems will interpret as a date in 1901 rather than 2038. This is caused by Integer overflow. The counter “runs out” of usable digits, “increments” the sign bit instead, and reports a maximally negative number (continuing to count up, towards zero). This will likely cause problems for users of these systems due to erroneous calculations.

I’ve no idea whether this is the case, but hearing “2037” and “crash” invoked in the video has got me wondering.

There we go, they've even politicized the end of the 32-bit UNIX system clock.

[mainiac]

Oh wow, a out of context quote turned into a blanket statement, I'm really convinced now.

Look, I just gave you a rather extensive explanation about a complex issue.  I don't feel inclined to provide you with sources because I'm not writing you a term paper.  Trust me or not, it's your call.  However what I am not going to do is give you a bunch of ammo to raise a bunch of nitpicks.  Paul Ryan policies are a minefield of stuff where he gives a short lie like "medicaid is preserved" that is quick to repeat but takes a long, detailed response to explain why it doesn't work that way.

Now given that this is a subject that requires slow and careful discussion to get at the truth of it's not one I'm remotely interested in discussing with someone who does stuff like that post full of pictures.

I would say that I'll sleep just fine tonight knowing that you don't believe me... but what with this insomnia I'm gonna be sleepless whether you believe me or not.

[Urist_McDrowner]

Do you know why all those projections of the economy crashing go to 2037?

http://ruk.ca/content/us-budget-and-2037

In this well-produced video about the U.S. budget, U.S. Congressman Paul Ryan says “I asked the Congressional Budget Office to model the economy going forward, so they have these computer programs that simulate the U.S. economy; the computer program crashes in 2037 because it can’t conceive of any way in which the U.S. economy can continue because of this massive burden of debt.”
This may very well be true. But I’m wondering whether the simulator might be crashing, instead, because of the well-known 2038 problem, described in Wikipedia like this:
The year 2038 problem (also known as the Unix Millennium Bug, Y2K38, Y2.038K, or S2G by analogy to the Y2K problem) may cause some computer software to fail at some point near the year 2038. The problem affects all software and systems that both store system time as a signed 32-bit integer, and interpret this number as the number of seconds since 00:00:00 UTC on Thursday, 1 January 1970. The furthest time that can be represented this way is 03:14:07 UTC on Tuesday, 19 January 2038. Times beyond this moment will “wrap around” and be stored internally as a negative number, which these systems will interpret as a date in 1901 rather than 2038. This is caused by Integer overflow. The counter “runs out” of usable digits, “increments” the sign bit instead, and reports a maximally negative number (continuing to count up, towards zero). This will likely cause problems for users of these systems due to erroneous calculations.
I’ve no idea whether this is the case, but hearing “2037” and “crash” invoked in the video has got me wondering.

There we go, they've even politicized the end of the 32-bit UNIX system clock.

Blogs aren't real sources. Get me a real one.

[Reelya]

Lol idiot. Ryan said it on video. The economic forecast software literally crashed in 2037.

And do you deny the existence of the wrap-around for unix time stamps in 2038? That's well known to techies.

Seriuosly just google paul ryan saying it. Is that rocket science?

There's multiple times Ryan said it:

On Mark Levin's radio show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8EFCvLI98U

On video / press conference (about 1:45 in)
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ryan-debt-track-hit-800-percent-gdp-cbo-cant-conceive-any-way-economy-can-continue-past

Idiot Ryan conflates a technical crash with the economy crashing.

[mainiac]

Try not to call people in the thread idiot.  Remember that insults come across as a million bajillion times more hostile in this thread.

[Urist_McDrowner]

Oh wow, a out of context quote turned into a blanket statement, I'm really convinced now.

Look, I just gave you a rather extensive explanation about a complex issue.  I don't feel inclined to provide you with sources because I'm not writing you a term paper.  Trust me or not, it's your call.  However what I am not going to do is give you a bunch of ammo to raise a bunch of nitpicks.  Paul Ryan policies are a minefield of stuff where he gives a short lie like "medicaid is preserved" that is quick to repeat but takes a long, detailed response to explain why it doesn't work that way.

Now given that this is a subject that requires slow and careful discussion to get at the truth of it's not one I'm remotely interested in discussing with someone who does stuff like that post full of pictures.

I would say that I'll sleep just fine tonight knowing that you don't believe me... but what with this insomnia I'm gonna be sleepless whether you believe me or not.

This is getting sigged.

[mainiac]

Um thanks?

[Reelya]

To sig, the impossible sig.

[Urist_McDrowner]

Lol idiot. Ryan said it on video. The economic forecast software literally crashed in 2037.

And do you deny the existence of the wrap-around for unix time stamps in 2038? That's well known to techies.

Dembass, go watch the video.

I did watch the video. The CBO, quoted by Ryan, says 2027. 2:32 in, to be precise.

If you're going to try and take the intellectual high ground, word of advice. Using words like "lol", and "Dembass" isn't conducive to that, neither is calling anyone an idiot.