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[LuckyNinja]

Okay, so here's the problem: it's my first time messing about with the raws, and I decided to add a few new weapons, a new metal etc...

So I made a katana, with the following RAW entry:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_KATANA]
[NAME:katana:katanas]
[SIZE:900]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:56500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:EDGE:80000:4500:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:2200]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100:5500:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1800]
[ATTACK:EDGE:10000:6800:cleave:cleaves:NO_SUB:2000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:20000:4000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:50:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

now compared to that of a long sword:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_LONG]
[NAME:long sword:long swords]
[SIZE:700]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:57500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:52500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:EDGE:60000:6000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:3000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:60000:6000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

Katana size > longsword, and I believe I made the katanas attack with a greater velocity (I don't know if that affects the speed rating though)

HOWEVER

Enter arena mode, I decide to compare the two, and the longsword wins. Repeatedly. Going over the logs, it appears that while the dwarf with the longsword was attacking almost every time with his sword, the katana-dwarf would repeatedly decide to scratch, punch and bite, and every time he tried using the katana it got parried.

So I ask, what is the explanation of the katana being completely unable to block, and getting blocked every time? Why is the dwarf barely deciding to use the weapon? Why is the longsword striking first every time?

and more importantly, how do I fix this?

Regards,
Lucky

Update: Weapons it currently is inferior to (1 v 1):

Longsword
Shortsword
Battleaxe - roughly equal to, still not good

Addendum: Does the weight of the material of the weapon affect it's power?  I made a custom metal at least three times as dense as any other, yet when I used arena to test it in warhammer form (under idea of e=1/2mv^2, with "e" being kinetic force, so with a much greater value for "m" than typical")  yet the best I got was BRUISES and the occasional fracture. No asploding into giblets, or being belted across the arena. Bruises. Am I doing something wrong?

[ullrich]

Katana size > longsword, and I believe I made the katanas attack with a greater velocity (I don't know if that affects the speed rating though)

Maybe the game just wants to be more realistic .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hy_A9vjp_s&feature=related
Katana (1:50):
Length: 105 cm
Weight: 1.1kg

Longsword (3:05):
Length: 120 cm
Weight: 1.4kg

Also you wouldn't want to parry a longsword with a katana since it would break the katana (5:55).

But since you not trying to be realistic, (you also can't really do a pommel strike with a katana very effectively since it doesn't have the weighted ball), perhaps try adding the weapon to be used by the race in the test, could be a problem with a creature using an exotic weapon (in case of dwarves in entities_default under mountain, just slap in katana where it has all the other items).

[_DivideByZero_]

Perhaps you should lower the size of the katana. You do realize that realistically, most longswords were in-fact designed for two-handed use? Anyway, I believe that the increased size makes the dwarf slower and thus less able to utilize the weapon.

About the material question, you want the material to have good impact yield as well. One issue with a greater density is that your dwarf swings it more slowly.

[darkflagrance]

I don't think the DF longsword is meant to simulate the real-life longsword per se - that might be more the realm of the 2-handed sword. I think it's more akin to the bastard sword, capable of being wielded with one or two hands depending on the situation.

[Garbles]

Try removing all the dwarven natural attacks, then try the two against each other. If the katana dwarf is still pushing instead of using a weapon and the longsword dwarf isn't then... Well I dunno. Hopefully you're just feeling the ire of the RNG.

[LuckyNinja]

But since you not trying to be realistic, (you also can't really do a pommel strike with a katana very effectively since it doesn't have the weighted ball), perhaps try adding the weapon to be used by the race in the test, could be a problem with a creature using an exotic weapon (in case of dwarves in entities_default under mountain, just slap in katana where it has all the other items).

I'm not trying to be realistic, I just want a katana. It is listed under normal weapons for dwarves.

Anyway, I believe that the increased size makes the dwarf slower and thus less able to utilize the weapon.

About the material question, you want the material to have good impact yield as well. One issue with a greater density is that your dwarf swings it more slowly.

Do I want the impact yield to be high or low?

Also, I'm aware that the high denisty means the weapons will be slower as a result, although I was hoping the velocity measure would act as a counterbalance.

[Seriyu]

Velocity affects damage, not swing speed, as far as I'm aware.

[Raptor_a22]

Perhaps you should lower the size of the katana. You do realize that realistically, most longswords were in-fact designed for two-handed use? Anyway, I believe that the increased size makes the dwarf slower and thus less able to utilize the weapon.

About the material question, you want the material to have good impact yield as well. One issue with a greater density is that your dwarf swings it more slowly.

Thats actually a Landskect two handed sword.
Typical longsword in the middle ages were only 100cm long, designed to be used with a shield.
Short swords were shorter (obviously) and were only around 70-80cm
A hand and a half sword (bastard) could be sed in one hand if the soldier was strong enough and had the proper training.

The flat edge of a katana would usually be able to parry a sword, owing to the way katanas are made and shaped.
Extremely painstaking and long process, which gave an extremely strong material.
Rapiers also have only one edge, the flat side being used for parries.

[Harry959]

Perhaps you should lower the size of the katana. You do realize that realistically, most longswords were in-fact designed for two-handed use? Anyway, I believe that the increased size makes the dwarf slower and thus less able to utilize the weapon.

About the material question, you want the material to have good impact yield as well. One issue with a greater density is that your dwarf swings it more slowly.

Thats actually a Landskect two handed sword.
Typical longsword in the middle ages were only 100cm long, designed to be used with a shield.
Short swords were shorter (obviously) and were only around 70-80cm
A hand and a half sword (bastard) could be sed in one hand if the soldier was strong enough and had the proper training.

The flat edge of a katana would usually be able to parry a sword, owing to the way katanas are made and shaped.
Extremely painstaking and long process, which gave an extremely strong material.
Rapiers also have only one edge, the flat side being used for parries.

That's a cutlass. A rapier is all flat sides, being able to parry with any part strong enough to take a hit. The only dangerous part of the rapier is the point, unless you plan to slowly beat the opponent to death with a metal rod.

[ullrich]

The flat edge of a katana would usually be able to parry a sword, owing to the way katanas are made and shaped.
Extremely painstaking and long process, which gave an extremely strong material.

This is actually incorrect, against any weapon that has a bit of mass to it.

Japan had very low quality iron compared to Europe, this is why they used the lengthy forging technique they used of repeated folding to remove the impurities (not a unique forging style to Japan either, just they HAD to do it to get decent metal). In the video I linked in my first response at 5:55 you can see what happens when a katana takes a heavy blow against a hard object, it bends, while the much beefier German sword, later in the video, doesn't.

[Koji]

A bigger weapon is heavier and slower. Attacks with higher velocity do not appear to happen more quickly.

If you want to realistically give the katana-wielders some advantage over their opponents, give them steel katanas to counter bronze and iron long swords.

Size in DF tends to refer to weight. If you think the katana should be a quicker weapon, make it a bit smaller and make it out of lighter materials.

The only dangerous part of the rapier is the point, unless you plan to slowly beat the opponent to death with a metal rod.

That's a foil. A rapier is usually a long, narrow sword which can be single or double edged. A cutlass is a single edged sword with a somewhat broader blade.

Buuuuuut realize a few things, guys:

1) The AMAZING SUPERIORITY of katanas is the stuff of fantasy. It is a pretty good example of a culture getting creative and coming up with a weapon that works well on horseback or on foot, but that's about it. Now as this is a video game, you should feel free to do whatever you want with them.

2) Historical military technology has been disseminated over the years, shared with allies, traded to foreign lands, and appropriated by enemies. What the 16th century germans called a scimitar might be quite different from what the turks called the same weapon, or even what the 14th century germans called it. These weapons, swords specifically, are sort of nebulously termed.

3) Any discussion or argument over WHAT SWORD IS BETTER is pure speculation and heavily colored by personal bias.

[Grimlocke]

Discussions about swords aside, when testing stuff in the arena, do not use 1v1 matches. Arena characters are generated with a random set of atributes, which can realy spoil your results. Not to mention that the fights themselves have a lot of random rolls in them.

40v40 matches seem to smooth out most of the randomness. They are also fun and bloody.

Making the katana quicker than longswords can be done by decreasing size, making it stronger can be done with the velocity multiplier and the perhaps by taking some liberties with the contact surface and penetration depth.

[Patchouli]

Discussions about swords aside, when testing stuff in the arena, do not use 1v1 matches. Arena characters are generated with a random set of atributes, which can realy spoil your results. Not to mention that the fights themselves have a lot of random rolls in them.

40v40 matches seem to smooth out most of the randomness. They are also fun and bloody.

Making the katana quicker than longswords can be done by decreasing size, making it stronger can be done with the velocity multiplier and the perhaps by taking some liberties with the contact surface and penetration depth.

Make sure to use a macro if doing the 40v40 method, so you don't die of tedium.

[LuckyNinja]

Discussions about swords aside, when testing stuff in the arena, do not use 1v1 matches. Arena characters are generated with a random set of atributes, which can realy spoil your results. Not to mention that the fights themselves have a lot of random rolls in them.

40v40 matches seem to smooth out most of the randomness. They are also fun and bloody.

Making the katana quicker than longswords can be done by decreasing size, making it stronger can be done with the velocity multiplier and the perhaps by taking some liberties with the contact surface and penetration depth.

All good suggestions thank you

They now work a it better. a 4v4 vs longswords, the longswords won, but the remaining guy quickly bled to death on account of punctured heart and lungs, broken spine and left leg, and missing right arm and right leg


Knowing what value to make the yield impact for the material though would still be nice