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[Truean]

Slavery? That's the example? Slavery which took a war to end here and many people still deny that war was about slavery while saying it was about "State's Rights" (to... chose whether or not to have... slavery...). All that stuff you said, abolitionists, etc, they couldn't convince enough of the country to take legal action to abolish slavery without a bloody war and the dissolution of the country that only ended with forcible military reintegration. Even after that segregation and discrimination continued for decades thereafter even with Plessy v. Ferguson, which stood as the law of the land until Brown v. Board.

The US isn't the only country in the world.  It did not take a war to stop slavery in Britain or the British Empire as I clearly stated.  There was an anti-slavery movement that gradually built momentum until it was so popular that slavery as an institution could not survive.  I'd like you to provide an explanation for how something like that could happen without people changing their minds.

I'd say similarly in the US attitudes changed a lot during the Civil Rights era.  Not all the way, but enough that Civil Rights Acts could be passed and the like.  I don't think generational shift is enough to explain that.

Any progress we've made was from the old generation dying off and the new generation not following them.

Firstly, I feel like some changes have been too quick for this to be true.  Secondly, let's say you're right and it's the new generation who decide change.  Are they just gonna randomly come to a conclusion which cannot be affected in any way, or should we do our darndest to make sure they know about how bad racism is through ideas such as multiculturalism?  If we don't spread that word then the new generation won't be any better than the old one, will it?

Firstly, I feel like some changes have been too quick for this to be true.  Secondly, let's say you're right and it's the new generation who decide change.  Are they just gonna randomly come to a conclusion which cannot be affected in any way, or should we do our darndest to make sure they know about how bad racism is through ideas such as multiculturalism?  If we don't spread that word then the new generation won't be any better than the old one, will it?

Multiculturalism OR colorblindness. You shove two kids together somewhere and they'll start playing. No need to say jack about the "differences." Look at that kids, blocks you can play with. Lego bricks! Have fun. Kids I've seen only grow up racist if they are taught to.

The US isn't the only country in the world.  It did not take a war to stop slavery in Britain or the British Empire as I clearly stated.  There was an anti-slavery movement that gradually built momentum until it was so popular that slavery as an institution could not survive.  I'd like you to provide an explanation for how something like that could happen without people changing their minds.

I'd say similarly in the US attitudes changed a lot during the Civil Rights era.  Not all the way, but enough that Civil Rights Acts could be passed and the like.  I don't think generational shift is enough to explain that.

Most people's minds don't change

O it happens. Even in the US example there were abolitionists. Maybe 40-50% of the country. And the other ... I dunno... half?
US isn't the only country on earth. Obvious, fine. I've said it happens, not enough and not quickly. So it happened in the UK, fine, that's balanced out by all the places it didn't happen and the places where slavery still exists.

That doesn't count 3rd world factory labor used by the US and UK http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=364&catid=9&subcatid=60, as well as the rest of the world. We're bringing slavery back cause it's cheaper.... We're doing it somewhere else.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In some factories workers are only allowed to shower once a week and workers are kept locked inside buildings that have their windows covered and the doors bolted shut. In some cases the meals are cabbage and potato soup served three times a day. To keep girls from quitting some factories require that provide a deposit of two weeks pay and turnover their ID cards. The deposit is illegal and the girls need their ID cards to take on another job or remain in the city.

[Leafsnail]

Multiculturalism OR colorblindness. You shove two kids together somewhere and they'll start playing. No need to say jack about the "differences." Look at that kids, blocks you can play with. Lego bricks! Have fun. Kids I've seen only grow up racist if they are taught to.

Why "OR"?  Why not "AND"?  Colourblindness works assuming they aren't simultaneously being taught racism by their parents.  Multiculturalism can help by combatting that too.

O it happens. Even in the US example there were abolitionists. Maybe 40-50% of the country. And the other ... I dunno... half?
US isn't the only country on earth. Obvious, fine. I've said it happens, not enough and not quickly. So it happened in the UK, fine, that's balanced out by all the places it didn't happen and the places where slavery still exists.

No, it isn't "balanced out".  You're claiming something is impossible.  I am showing that it is possible, and has happened.  If it's possible but not guarenteed, that just makes it something to strive for.  Something that we have to fight to do.  Your statement about it being as hard as turning lead into gold is false.  If lead turned to gold if you worked at it hard enough and for long enough it'd be worth doing.

That doesn't count 3rd world factory labor used by the US and UK http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=364&catid=9&subcatid=60, as well as the rest of the world.

Which is irrelevant.  People's minds were still very much changed over slavery (including for many people in the US, as you said).  They can change again for non-slavery but nevertheless terrible conditions (indeed, we've already pretty much eradicated conditions like that in our countries - it's not a huge leap to stop buying from companies who do that abroad, and indeed some people are already doing that).

[Truean]

Multiculturalism OR colorblindness. You shove two kids together somewhere and they'll start playing. No need to say jack about the "differences." Look at that kids, blocks you can play with. Lego bricks! Have fun. Kids I've seen only grow up racist if they are taught to.

Why "OR"?  Why not "AND"?  Colourblindness works assuming they aren't simultaneously being taught racism by their parents.  Multiculturalism can help by combatting that too.

O it happens. Even in the US example there were abolitionists. Maybe 40-50% of the country. And the other ... I dunno... half?
US isn't the only country on earth. Obvious, fine. I've said it happens, not enough and not quickly. So it happened in the UK, fine, that's balanced out by all the places it didn't happen and the places where slavery still exists.

No, it isn't "balanced out".  You're claiming something is impossible.  I am showing that it is possible, and has happened.  If it's possible but not guarenteed, that just makes it something to strive for.  Something that we have to fight to do.  Your statement about it being as hard as turning lead into gold is false.  If lead turned to gold if you worked at it hard enough and for long enough it'd be worth doing.

That doesn't count 3rd world factory labor used by the US and UK http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=364&catid=9&subcatid=60, as well as the rest of the world.

Which is irrelevant.  People's minds were still very much changed over slavery (including for many people in the US, as you said).  They can change again for non-slavery but nevertheless terrible conditions (indeed, we've already pretty much eradicated conditions like that in our countries - it's not a huge leap to stop buying from companies who do that abroad, and indeed some people are already doing that).

Why "OR"?  Why not "AND"?  Colourblindness works assuming they aren't simultaneously being taught racism by their parents.  Multiculturalism can help by combatting that too.

Mutual exclusion. You can't inform of and ignore differences in the same breath. Honestly, I was taught incredibly racist things by my parents and my hating them and deciding to be nothing like them played no small part in my not being like them. If someone would've tried to teach me multiculturalism when I was 4 and my dad heard about it, he'd have pulled me out of that quickly and countered that.... Bad result.

You're talking about combating things. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. What I'm talking about above with my dad, would've been the opposite reaction....

No, it isn't "balanced out".  You're claiming something is impossible.  I am showing that it is possible, and has happened.  If it's possible but not guarenteed, that just makes it something to strive for.  Something that we have to fight to do.  Your statement about it being as hard as turning lead into gold is false.  If lead turned to gold if you worked at it hard enough and for long enough it'd be worth doing.

Nothing is impossible; it's impractical. You probably CAN change lead into gold but its prohibitively expensive and requires a particle accelerator. I'm sure if physicists and chemists worked hard enough they could manage converting some Pb into Ag and Au. Immensely impractical though.

Which is irrelevant.  People's minds were still very much changed over slavery (including for many people in the US, as you said).  They can change again for non-slavery but nevertheless terrible conditions (indeed, we've already pretty much eradicated conditions like that in our countries - it's not a huge leap to stop buying from companies who do that abroad, and indeed some people are already doing that).

Which is totally relevant, because you're saying we got rid of slavery and I'm just saying we just moved it half a world away. Not a huge step not buying from companies who do that? First of all it's hard to know which companies are doing that. Second, it's more expensive and everyone is broke. Huge leap.

[EveryZig]

10 years ago, I was a racist homophobic who though sex was evil. What changed me into the exact opposite? Personal experience.

I am interested in hearing the story about that.

[kaijyuu]

Pretty boring, actually. Two biggest factors would be:


1) Internet. Just hearing a massive deluge of different opinions compared to my normal sheltered life.
2) An awesome history teacher in high school. He liked to talk about parallels to current events, so I got a bunch of new perspectives (and educated ones to boot, compared to the internet ones above).


Basically, the indoctrination from my childhood peeled away and I figured out what I really think. It's still peeling and I'm still figuring things out too (progressive rage threads have played no small part in that in the past year).

[Capntastic]

Hey guys I don't want to make a tone argument but the last few pages were really terrible and dumb because the multiculturalism/colorblindness argument is stupid because everyone who is sane will recognize that cutting out all of the terms and language finesse from it, each side is left with "Don't be shitty to people based on things that aren't worth being shitty to them about."

Pursuit of truth in workable policy based on evidence and reason is super important and just because there are good ways and bad ways to handle things doesn't mean there's Only One Correct Truth.  It's the authoritarian ideal of there being One Correct Truth that causes a lot of policy problems in the first place.

Basically it's a cesspool argument where no one can win so I think it's best to move on from it okay.   Let's talk about something else.
~~~

Today was Day of Silence, did anyone partake in it?  While I didn't, I verbally castigated someone 'just asking questions' and 'showing concern' that it is a waste of time and "makes LGBT people look hostile".  It wasn't a fair discussion at all solely because the dude refused to actually read up or listen to anything about the thing he was arguing against.  Dealing with him was the mental equivalent of someone just punching their defenseless opponent in the throat for 15 minutes straight.

Basically what I'm saying is that I have more respect for someone who has bad opinions for fair reasons than someone who has fair opinions for no reason at all.  Because with the former they have indicated that they are capable of coming to better, more correct views.

[Truean]

Today was Day of Silence,

Thank you for that, really. I really hope that works. I do. I am forever skeptical, but I'd really really like for it to work.... I'm rather silent on the whole thing; I don't know if I'll ever really come out. I avoid lots of people, especially being honest with them. I avoid straight guys especially. I've memories of and aversions to getting beat up if they think I'm hitting on them, which I never do as a rule. ("non-reciprocal "is a sucky kind of love anyhow...).

[Frumple]

Ehn. If nothing else, you'll retire comfortably, eventually. At that point, you can just go "T'hell with it."

As for the day itself, didn't know about it -- don't really keep track of dates, most of the time. On the other hand, only thing I really talked to today was a dog, so...

... also not currently in school, for what that's worth.

[ggamer]

Pretty boring, actually. Two biggest factors would be:


1) Internet. Just hearing a massive deluge of different opinions compared to my normal sheltered life.
2) An awesome history teacher in high school. He liked to talk about parallels to current events, so I got a bunch of new perspectives (and educated ones to boot, compared to the internet ones above).


Basically, the indoctrination from my childhood peeled away and I figured out what I really think. It's still peeling and I'm still figuring things out too (progressive rage threads have played no small part in that in the past year).

This is true. Same thing happened to me when I was introduced to the internet and, probably most importantly, the progressive rage thread. Taught me that not everything I hold in view of society is right, and that there are some people that...

Well, they can fucking scare you with their worldviews.

Anyway, I came to this thread (back when Vector first started it) as an all around conservative. Now, i'm only economically conservative, and my religious views have mellowed out as well, in that I can certainly have a broader viewpoint than before.

bottom line, although I hold nothing but anger for some people in this thread, they probably changed me for the better.

[Fenrir]

bottom line, although I hold nothing but anger for some people in this thread, they probably changed me for the better.

Aw, not again. Are you serious? I already gave you my apologies.

Set someone on fire once and they never forgive you for it.

[Truean]

http://news.yahoo.com/report-wal-mart-hushed-bribe-network-mexico-205007298--finance.html

"But according to the Times, top Wal-Mart executives kept quiet about the campaign and were more focused on damage control than on exposing the corruption...."

Deregulate; keep the government out of it; let the free market decide; corporations can govern themselves.... I don't care anymore.

[Pnx]

http://news.yahoo.com/report-wal-mart-hushed-bribe-network-mexico-205007298--finance.html

"But according to the Times, top Wal-Mart executives kept quiet about the campaign and were more focused on damage control than on exposing the corruption...."

Deregulate; keep the government out of it; let the free market decide; corporations can govern themselves.... I don't care anymore.

The thing about Mexico is that it's one of those countries where bribery is heavily engrained into the culture. Sometimes bribery is actually necessarily if you even want to just stay open for business.

[Truean]

Eh, I dunno. So the people make ze shit wages and it's cool to bribe the shit out of the politicians. "Socially Acceptable" seems to mean that it's such a widespread problem that we just got used to it. [shrugs].

[Frumple]

Also the smaaalll problem that walmart's, y'know, a US company engaging in illegal acts, in this situation. Regardless as to if it's socially acceptable in Mexico, it's kinda' breaking the law, from what I understand, for ol' wallie world to be indulging it it. As in, US law. That's sorta' the (/their) problem.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

There was a pending Supreme Court case Truean posted some time ago addressing whether or not foreigners could bring American corporations to court for human rights violations and such in their countries. Haven't heard anything else about it, though.