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Author Topic: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread  (Read 1247322 times)

Owlbread

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6630 on: July 20, 2013, 11:44:03 am »

1. And is that how it ever, ever, ever worked out in any of all the communist countries in the last 100 years?

Yah, I guess attempting to make iron on your crop fields for The People (aka the Communist Party and Government and Friends) would further your own interests. Then your mass-grave can be sealed with grossly imperfected iron, instead of dirt.

At least you can be executed in style and comfort!

2. HERETIC! HERETIC ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE!!!

I don't know why you've brought that kind of thing up again, we've already established that virtually every Communist country that has existed in the last 100 years has completely fucked it up.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6631 on: July 20, 2013, 11:47:07 am »

1. And is that how it ever, ever, ever worked out in any off all the communit countries in the last 100 years?

Yah, I guess attempting to make iron on your crop fields for The People (aka the Communist Party and Government and Friends) would further your own interests. Then your mass-grave can be sealed with grossly imperfected iron, instead of dirt.

At least you can be executed in style and comfort!

2. HERETIC! HERETIC ENEMY OF THE PEOPLE!!!

You're a fan of sensationalism aren't you, PatriotSaint?

So the current prison population in the U.S. is the largest of any nation in the history of the world, mostly because of a for-profit prison system that lobbies for overly strict laws that get people locked up for stupid reasons.  A large number of these people at any given time are held in solitary confinement.  This is a treatment that is considered to be torture by most of the developed world, on the observation that it has been found to cause permanent psychological damage within two weeks almost 100% of the time.  A large portion of prison inmates will at some point find themselves in solitary confinement, some of them for years.  The U.S. prison system is known to be a pretty horrible place to be, motivating criminals, even petty ones, to go to dangerous lengths to avoid it.  In response, the police are continually advised and granted greater leeway to conduct their job with an extreme degree of paranoia and violent force.  As a result, the police severely injure or kill in usually completely uncalled for fashion innocent people or petty suspects every single day.  And the vast majority of victims are poor, as it's pretty widely observed that the poor's rights simply aren't respected very much, if at all.

Not regular political executions, but it's not exactly a flattering set of circumstances, either.  All driven by capitalist motivations.  And that's not even going into how capitalist exploitation of vulnerable populations on an international scale has also resulted in hundreds of millions of deaths.  Or if you want to talk about people being killed for political persecution, how about the terrorism instigated by the U.S. in South America to prevent the spread of socialism, where such was occurring in a peaceful and legitimate fashion completely unrelated to the oppression in the Soviet Union.  Millions murdered there in the name of capitalism.

I don't think claiming moral high ground is the way you should go about promoting your ideology.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 11:53:51 am by SalmonGod »
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Helgoland

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6632 on: July 20, 2013, 11:56:30 am »

The hypothetical Communist citizen's incentive is...

Having a nicer life. By furthering the common interest, we can further our own self interests.
In the long term, yes - but that's not how incentives work.
An incentive means that this particular action will benefit you - that's why you have stuff like the tragedy of the commons.

But you mention a pay scale: In actual communism, there's no pay at all. As little as I agree with PatronSaint's blunt pro-capitalism, he's right:
HERETIC!
describes pretty well what you are in the eyes of a Marxist-Leninist (and any communist who isn't really just a social democrat). Your point of view is bourgeois, uncommunist, and you'd probably have gone to the gulag for it.

(These tthings apply to me as well, btw; if anything, it's a point of honor.)
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Angle

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6633 on: July 20, 2013, 12:03:04 pm »

I already said that I didn't like Lenin. Did none of you notice that?
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Helgoland

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6634 on: July 20, 2013, 12:08:28 pm »

It applies to other branches of communism too.

Also, how can you not like Lenin? The awesome of his beards is only matched by the combined moustache power of Stalin and Nietzsche!
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6635 on: July 20, 2013, 12:16:08 pm »

Neitzsche's moustache power > Lenin's beard level

Vector

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6636 on: July 20, 2013, 12:40:53 pm »

Neitzsche's moustache power > Lenin's beard level

Wow, first LordBucket starts saying things I agree with, and then Loud Whispers and I have started seeing eye-to-eye... *brobump*


1. And is that how it ever, ever, ever worked out in any of all the communist countries in the last 100 years?

"We haven't gotten it to work yet in a very narrow and select range of situations" is in and of itself not sufficient evidence for the statement "it will never work."
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6637 on: July 20, 2013, 12:51:57 pm »

It would be easy to wave at many nations and point out that clearly Capitalism does not work, yet people keep trying, which vexes me somewhat.
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Vector

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6638 on: July 20, 2013, 12:53:48 pm »

It would be easy to wave at many nations and point out that clearly Capitalism does not work, yet people keep trying, which vexes me somewhat.

This as well. 
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Strife26

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6639 on: July 20, 2013, 12:54:16 pm »

Capitalism and Democracy are the worst possible of economic and political systems, except for all the others that we've tried.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6640 on: July 20, 2013, 12:55:38 pm »

Capitalism and Democracy are the worst possible of economic and political systems, except for all the others that we've tried.

Ah, yes, Mr Churchill. He also went on record to say that the best argument against a democracy was a 5 min chat with a typical voter, a statement which has some weight IMHO.
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scrdest

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6641 on: July 20, 2013, 01:15:36 pm »

Capitalism and Democracy are the worst possible of economic and political systems, except for all the others that we've tried.

Goodness. How I hate posts like this. Don't take it personally. But people on either side of the argument, posting cliches and cached arguments are bringing up some dark eristic monster within me.

Also: Churchill didn't bring up Capitalism in his quote, so you're stretching it a bit.

Also^2: There are some systems that do work better than the combination here, but they usually fail when you try to expand it from a small group of ideologically-motivated people and/or friends to a statewide level.
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Vector

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6642 on: July 20, 2013, 01:16:33 pm »

dark eristic monster

I think I'm in love.
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pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Loud Whispers

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6643 on: July 20, 2013, 01:17:56 pm »

I do think today is one of the forum's better days :P

Strife26

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Re: Calm and Cool Progressive Discussion Thread
« Reply #6644 on: July 20, 2013, 01:24:37 pm »

Capitalism and Democracy are the worst possible of economic and political systems, except for all the others that we've tried.

Goodness. How I hate posts like this. Don't take it personally. But people on either side of the argument, posting cliches and cached arguments are bringing up some dark eristic monster within me.

Also: Churchill didn't bring up Capitalism in his quote, so you're stretching it a bit.

Also^2: There are some systems that do work better than the combination here, but they usually fail when you try to expand it from a small group of ideologically-motivated people and/or friends to a statewide level.

Yeah, I'm totally stretching it badly. However, I'd say that, at the end of the day, capitalistic and democratic societies have done a lot more to improve mankind's quality of life than any other. 


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