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[Descan]

Let's talk about Canada~

[USEC_OFFICER]

Let's talk about Canada~

Oh Canada. _{Our home and native land.}

Still, I'm glad to see that 84% of Canadians still support public health care. With the baby boomers getting closer to retirement age every year, we'll need it more than ever.

[GlyphGryph]

Okay, Strife, look, I can understand why you don't like the guy.

But look at it from my perspective - You're organization lies to me, deceives me, takes my money and then uses it to act in ways directly contrary to my best interests, while killing loads of people and leading to the deaths of countrymen and friends.

I understand obedience is useful for a soldier, and why the army would want obedience above morality - it clearly doesn't give a shit about morality, since the soldiers responsible for a wide variety of atrocities that reflected poorly on them were given nothing but a slap on the wrist. It aids and abets criminals the world over, tarnishing the image of my nation and endangering the lives of those I care about.

I understand why you don't like Manning - he's launched an attack on your organization from the inside, and broken the bonds of trust.

What you need to understand is why we do - because he's not on your side. He chose loyalty to the American people over loyalty to the military. It is a hard choice, and I understand why he needs to be punished in order to keep your organization operating. It's the reason he plead guilty to 10 charges.

But from my perspective, from the perspective of an American citizen, you are serving in an armed organization intent on operating in the interests of those who seek to harm this country. You are working for traitors, and your obedience is not a fucking excuse for the evil you enable. Manning (unlike Snowden), is most definitely a traitor - but he is a traitor who has acted in my best interests, and by god if there's anything I can do to support him I will, and I wish there was more like him. Not just because I care about me, but because I care about you.

Manning was a terrible soldier. But he was a good man. We've got far more of a shortage of the second than we do of the first.

[Strife26]

And you're not looking at it from my point. I don't work for the corrupt "man" in any more than the loosest terms. I work for a company that does it's damnedest to follow generally contradictory orders from colonels and generals of all stripes to complete a mission assigned by our political masters who've never held a rifle, all while, if at all possible, keeping all the people I work with every day alive.


Yeah, I think that he may have been right to blow whistles. But the way he did it? Yeah, shooting a rabid raccoon is all fine and good, but the way I see it, he peppered the hell out of the house in the process.

[Strife26]

Also, I serve an organization that is intent on following our lawful orders as laid out in the Constitution.

Do you really want a military that starts bucking civilian control? Because, we'll see about Egypt (and I'm optimistic about them), but generally that doesn't end well.

[Leafsnail]

Except the organization was breaking a lot of laws, and we would never know if it weren't for people like Manning.

[Strife26]

Yeah, but now that organization sees everyone on the outside as a direct threat. Effective change of the Army has *always* came from either the top, or within.

[alexandertnt]

Let's talk about Canada~

Ugh, why is calling someone a socialist/communist such an effective political argument

Do you really want a military that starts bucking civilian control?

I am pretty sure that GlyphGryph was implying that they already are...

[SalmonGod]

And you're not looking at it from my point. I don't work for the corrupt "man" in any more than the loosest terms. I work for a company that does it's damnedest to follow generally contradictory orders from colonels and generals of all stripes to complete a mission assigned by our political masters

wut

Yeah, I think that he may have been right to blow whistles. But the way he did it? Yeah, shooting a rabid raccoon is all fine and good, but the way I see it, he peppered the hell out of the house in the process.

And the way I see it, nobody lives in that house but rabid raccoons.

Also, I serve an organization that is intent on following our lawful orders as laid out in the Constitution.

It's really hard for me to believe that you have read any of the complaints that we've laid about the U.S. military and political leadership... the whole reason we appreciate people like Manning is because they inform us of the fact that what you just said is not true.

[GlyphGryph]

And you're not looking at it from my point. I don't work for the corrupt "man" in any more than the loosest terms. I work for a company that does it's damnedest to follow generally contradictory orders from colonels and generals of all stripes to complete a mission assigned by our political masters who've never held a rifle, all while, if at all possible, keeping all the people I work with every day alive.

He contacted several new organizations, and WikiLeaks was the only one who would pick it up. He tried to do it in a responsible way. The way he DID do it, most details were removed before publishing. What I'm saying is - what exactly is the better way he could have gone about doing this? And I guarantee the diplomatic cables wouldn't have been released, and it would be hard to argue those haven't been a boon for America and free nations everywhere considering what they led to.

Also, I serve an organization that is intent on following our lawful orders as laid out in the Constitution.

It's really hard for me to believe that you have read any of the complaints that we've laid about the U.S. military and political leadership... the whole reason we appreciate people like Manning is because they inform us of the fact that what you just said is not true.

This is it, exactly. If I actually trusted your organization to effectively police itself, this would not be an issue. They have lost that trust now, many times over. There were so many terrible abuses in Afghanistan and Iraq that were swept under the rug, ignored, or resulted in a slap on the wrist, that the trust is shattered. But it's NOT Manning's fault the military is not operating effectively, and hid from us the things they were doing. They've been trying to control the message with increasing rules on reporters and whatnot - well, maybe they should have spent some time trying to get their house in order instead.

[kingfisher1112]

Who is Manning and why is he important? What did he whistleblow about?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Manning is a solider in the US Army who was just convicted of 20 counts of espionage and acquitted of one charge of aiding the enemy.

It would be better to list the things he didn't whistleblow about. I still can't believe he manged to give Wikileaks such a volume of data.

[kingfisher1112]

Manning is a solider in the US Army who was just convicted of 20 counts of espionage and acquitted of one charge of aiding the enemy.

It would be better to list the things he didn't whistleblow about. I still can't believe he manged to give Wikileaks such a volume of data.

What did he do?

[Sheb]

He leaked stuff like the "collateral murder" video and the diplomatic cable to Wikileaks.

[kingfisher1112]

Oh the irony.