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[Max White]

Irony? I don't get it.

[kingfisher1112]

Irony? I don't get it.

People are angry about the NSA surveillance and yet cheer on Manning.

[MonkeyHead]

But Mannings acts (exposing bad stuff done by those in positions of power) were in direct opposition to the motivations of the NSA ("spying" on private citizens without "sufficient" justification...

[kingfisher1112]

But Mannings acts (exposing bad stuff done by those in positions of power) were in direct opposition to the motivations of the NSA ("spying" on private citizens without "sufficient" justification...

The intent was to expose bad stuff done by civilians. And even then, what will change? The army is just a besieged organisation now. So many attempts have been made by people to portray them all as psychopaths.

[SalmonGod]

I view the irony in the opposite direction.  The government thinks it has a right to know everything about everybody at all times as if the human race is its property.  But we're not allowed to know anything they're doing, even though the premise of representative government is that they're supposed to be working for us. 

For example, the stuff that the military does is done with money provided by the citizenry (you and I), and supposed to be for our benefit and representative of our collective will.  If my resources are being used to massacre and torture innocent people in my name, I should fucking know.  I cannot imagine the basis on which anyone could argue that I don't have a right to know.

Here's a complete list of the information given to Wikileaks by Manning:

Collateral Murder
Afghan War Diary
Iraq War Logs
Cablegate
The Guantanamo Files
Granai Massacre Video

[Max White]

The intent was to expose bad stuff done by civilians. And even then, what will change? The army is just a besieged organisation now. So many attempts have been made by people to portray them all as psychopaths.

Civilians are not an armed force. The have the right to privacy. The military, however, is required to be as transparent as can be afforded. While it sometimes has to keep its secrets, suppressing things like civilian casualties do not help our soldiers, nor civilians. In both cases civil rights are being trodden on. I still don't see the irony.

The armed forces, for the most part, had little to do with how the information it gathered was treated. The men on the ground had no say in what was happening, and I'm sure many of them didn't even know the extent of the problem itself, or leaks would have come up a lot sooner.

The reason we can allow our troops the shield of 'just following orders' is because we expect the military to be transparent enough that the people who give those orders are held accountable. Somebody broke that rule and tried to weasel out of their responsibilities by hiding the repercussions of what they did through the proxy of the armed force. They crossed the damn line.

[kingfisher1112]

That's the thing: They don't work for you anymore. America, you dun goofed. You have allowed this shit to pass. You have allowed yourself to be watched. You allowed your soldiers to torture. You allow so much stuff to go on unnoticed and continue to care about non-issues. You remember that 2nd amendment? Fighting against tyrannical government? Now's the time to use it. You should be in open revolt. But no. This will continue quietly on, nothing being done. You're screwed. No wikileaks or Manning can save you. You've got that information, now act on it. You have a large amount of the military on your side. You could honestly revolt against the government, but you choose not to. Until that day comes, if that day comes, you are the government's playtoy. As much as you think you have power over them, you don't.

[SalmonGod]

You think you're telling me something I don't know?  I mostly agree with everything you just posted.

But is that supposed to be an argument against Manning?  I don't really understand.  The sad fact is, a majority of people still don't understand the nature of the information he released, or the ethical circumstances he acted on.  The majority still buys into the official spin that he's a traitor who dumped a bunch of information that didn't tell us anything important, but somehow was important enough to be an aid to the "enemy" at the same time.      The situation is slowly changing.  People are waking up.  But that's only because of millions of conversations like this taking place at the grassroots level, and more whistleblowers continuing to sacrifice themselves to beat it into everyone's heads that things are seriously wrong.

[kingfisher1112]

Nah, screw it. I don't know where I was going with Manning.

[SalmonGod]

I know people who still believe that Iraq had WMDs and Saddam was some kind of Al-Qaeda leader, and will basically plug their ears and start screaming when you try to correct them.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I know people who still believe that Iraq had WMDs and Saddam was some kind of Al-Qaeda leader, and will basically plug their ears and start screaming when you try to correct them.

All the same, I also know of people who fall to Second Position Bias and think of Saddam as being a saintly leader of men, which he certainly wasn't. The guy was mentally unstable at best.

[SalmonGod]

Interesting.  I've never encountered anyone who believed that.  But I'm sure they're out there.

My location probably has a lot to do with it.  Indiana is so backwards.  The Fox News culture is strong here.

[Sheb]

Not with Saddam, but I've seen people defend Qaddaffi and even at time Assad, buying into the "Rebels are western-controlled terrorist" thing.

Lot's of people have trouble admitting that just fighting a bad guy doesn't make you a good guy. Often, you just have assholes on both sides.

[Max White]

That's the thing: They don't work for you anymore. America, you dun goofed. You have allowed this shit to pass.

While it is easy to cross your arms and 'tisk tisk' at the faceless void called society, seeping up the moral authority that comes with blaming something that won't fight back, it is a lot more productive to find who the hell thought it was in peoples best interest to let this shit fly, and burn them into a petty husk.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Interesting.  I've never encountered anyone who believed that.  But I'm sure they're out there.

My location probably has a lot to do with it.  Indiana is so backwards.  The Fox News culture is strong here.

I'm surprised you haven't, most of the ones I've encountered where on the internet (though not on Bay 12).

It's not a hard thing to imagine how it happens. Younger people suffering from disillusionment at finding out the government has been less than honest with them that then proceed to, instead of making a rational assessment of the involved parties, immediately adopt the contrary position out of a feeling of betrayal and a desire to appear radical. And that's how you get people who think that Saddam, the Taliban, al-Qaeda and all the rest are just misunderstood victims of the US government.