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Author Topic: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]  (Read 13605 times)

LordBucket

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Re: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]
« Reply #75 on: November 03, 2013, 01:48:30 am »

"I'll ask once again, and once finally, so that there may be no confusion as to your allegiance. Do you swear to obey this ring and uphold our ideals, to follow the tenants of the pioneer, and to be loyal absolutely?"
As with all other foreigners, you are again made to swear your fealty. swear this oath.

Curious to see where this goes. That's an oath Aurora will be unable to make and I suspect Basayen will be unable also.

Not sure why you're implying that we already have.

Silcugar

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Re: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]
« Reply #76 on: November 03, 2013, 02:06:36 am »

Hm, really? I just kinda assumed since your character is willing to become a pioneer that you would be loyal to the ring. I mean, this isn't a mercenary kinda thing. It's not a contract. Becoming a pioneer means you are a part of Equestria, and an Equestrian.

What, exactly, is the problem with swearing loyalty to the ring?
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LordBucket

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Re: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]
« Reply #77 on: November 03, 2013, 08:25:22 am »

What, exactly, is the problem with swearing loyalty to the ring?

The big problem for Aurora would be that it would mean forsaking her title and giving up all claims back home. Remember she's nobility. That's the very first thing I said in my character background, and it's first thing I talked about in my speech to the ring: the political benefits of me being involved. There should be no surprises here.

But now, suddenly they're asking for fealty. Specifically, you used the word fealty:

swear your fealty

https://www.google.com/#q=fealty

fe·al·ty
nounhistorical
1.a feudal tenant's or vassal's sworn loyalty to a lord.
"they owed fealty to the Earl rather than the King"


The problem with this is that I am no longer Glistens nobility if I take the oath they're asking for.

Quote
I just kinda assumed since your character is willing to become a pioneer that you would be loyal to the ring.

Becoming a pioneer means you are a part of Equestria, and an Equestrian.

...why?

https://www.google.com/#q=pioneer+definition

pi·o·neer
noun
1. a person who is among the first to explore or settle a new country or area.


If anyone should be surprised here, it should be me. I made Aurora's affiliations clear a month ago, and I spent multiple paragraphs of my speech to the ring talking about the political consequences of me being involved.

Whereas you've been calling us pioneers from day one, not knights or vassals. The TBOE wiki entry for pioneer describes us as adventurers, and refers to pioneering as a profession, not a knighthood or military position that would require sworn allegiance, and it says nothing about becoming a citizen or giving up foreign affiliations. Even one of your npcs, Sasha, made it perfectly clear that she's a mercenary and the ring took no particular issue with that. And this is all entirely consistent with the repeated assertion that Equestria has no standing army at this point, only a militia, which is a non-professional citizen fighting force. Isn't that why we're here? Your npcs have been behaving consistently with the interpretation that we're agents in the literal, legal sense of the word and not the "secret agent" sense. You wouldn't ask your real estate agent to swear obedience to you. But now suddenly we're being asked to do exactly that, swear fealty, and become vassals.

That's not consistent with anything on your wiki, nor with anything that's been said in the game so far (at least on bay12). Making a pledge like that would break Aurora's character concept, and it would mean that a lot of things I've said suddenly no longer make sense.

Rolepgeek

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Re: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]
« Reply #78 on: November 03, 2013, 11:11:58 am »

So, while this manner of asking for loyalty was a bit sudden and unexpected, I do have to point out, LordBucket, that I'm fairly sure pioneer was meant in a different context than the literal definition. I'm also fairly sure that having a standing army and having people swear fealty to you aren't mutually inclusive.

Besides, from what I read of your character concept, she seems like she's outcast or otherwise no longer truly a Glistener.

Also, this all makes the assumption that Basayen won't lie, and won't make it but still have loyalty to his emperor. He's gonna be loyal to the emperor. Period. It's what he is/does.
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LordBucket

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Re: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]
« Reply #79 on: November 03, 2013, 11:49:16 am »

this manner of asking for loyalty was a bit sudden and unexpected

Agreed. There's been no indicator at all until now that this would be expected.

Quote
from what I read of your character concept, she seems
like she's outcast or otherwise no longer truly a Glistener.

No. Where did you get that idea? She grew up and decided to explore the world. The archetype here is Lady of Adventure

Quote
this all makes the assumption that Basayen won't lie, and won't make it but still have
loyalty to his emperor. He's gonna be loyal to the emperor. Period. It's what he is/does.

...see, that's a problem for me. Aurora wouldn't lie about it.

Noblesse Oblige.

Rolepgeek

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Re: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]
« Reply #80 on: November 03, 2013, 11:53:20 am »

The way I had read it, it seemed like unicorns weren't typically allowed/supposed to go exploring outside of Glistens, and I had gotten the impression she essentially ran away.

Edit: Asking for loyalty was not unexpected. Swearing an oath and fealty was.
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LordBucket

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Re: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]
« Reply #81 on: November 03, 2013, 12:02:02 pm »

The way I had read it, it seemed like unicorns weren't typically
allowed/supposed to go exploring outside of Glistens

Why? Not allowed by whom? We're the slavemasters, not the slaves.

http://tboe.wikia.com/wiki/Glistens

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Asking for loyalty was not unexpected. Swearing an oath and fealty was.

...sorry. Misleadingly incomplete quote on my part. Fixed.

Patrick Hunt

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Re: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]
« Reply #82 on: November 03, 2013, 01:35:14 pm »

What about dual citizenship?
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Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

Silcugar

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Re: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]
« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2013, 05:48:47 pm »

Hm, okay, I think I see the problem here. Let me clear a few things up, though.

A pioneer is more of a class than a profession. It's basically a special kind of knighthood, of unlanded nobility. You are not required to forsake former titles of land or lineage when swearing your loyalty to the ring, because you are not, technically, a true vassal. I was careful not to use the word vassal, because I knew those implications. At least, I don't think I have... Anyways, you are not a vassal, but the amount of trust the ring puts into the pioneers, and the status most must have before joining means that most pioneers would be glad to be completely loyal to the ring, and most are.

And, as a side note, Equestria military is primarily composed of militiamen, yes, but they also have retinues of warrior class pegasi with detachments of earth ponies (shock) and unicorns (auxiliary). I just call it the militia because the militia vastly outnumbers the retinue force.

As for Sasha, yes she is a merc, but she, like the rest of you, has been made to swear the oath. The only reason she hasn't been made to swear it now is that I wanted to save it for Basayen's time, for he is the least trustworthy, in the rings eyes. Also, Sasha goes on about being a mercenary, but she isn't being hired as one. Shes kind of a special case.

Anyways, onto the problem. It boils down to this: I shouldn't have used the word fealty. Troth is more appropriate, in this case. A troth sworn to ensure loyalty, without vassalage. Basically, Clover is asking, and has asked, the prospectives to not betray the ring, and to follow orders. Basically, she's ensuring that there is a somewhat solid tie to the ring, and to Equestria.

Oh, and being a pioneer makes you an 'honourary' citizen, if you aren't already one. Basically, you are seen as a citizen, even if your true lineage lies elsewhere. I didn't put this in the wiki because I expected most players, all that time ago when the game began, to be Equestrians. It worked out, because none of them had ties, or severed their ties to their homelands. You two end up being a special case, in that you are still somewhat loyal to your home country. This just means you'll be trusted less, even with a troth.

But, to summarize, pioneers are not vassals, they are highly trusted, important, usually unlanded nobles in Equestrian society. Thier citizenship is implied, not ensured.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]
« Reply #84 on: November 03, 2013, 05:52:15 pm »

He can certainly do that, then. It's just that he's going to end up valuing his homeland more, if for whatever reason the goals and/or direct orders start conflicting.
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LordBucket

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Re: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]
« Reply #85 on: November 04, 2013, 03:08:49 pm »

Aurora has not sworn an oath of obedience, and is unlikely to. Do you want to handle this in or out of character?

Patrick Hunt

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Re: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]
« Reply #86 on: November 04, 2013, 03:36:28 pm »

Uhh you want to make first contact and represent a nation without taking an oath first? No nation would allow that.
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Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

Silcugar

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Re: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]
« Reply #87 on: November 04, 2013, 08:04:32 pm »

Aurora has not sworn an oath of obedience, and is unlikely to. Do you want to handle this in or out of character?

I'm not sure I quite understand. Why would your character not want to swear an oath of obedience, if she is willing to work for them? Is she not? I mean, it seems like a pretty basic understanding between these parties. For someone to be trusted with a special title, equipment, responsibilities, etc, they should be obedient to their employer. Even mercenaries have contracts.
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Patrick Hunt

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Re: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]
« Reply #88 on: November 04, 2013, 10:10:45 pm »

It's gonna cause a bit of an issue if the first thing most of the team hears about you is that you refuse to take an oath. How are we supposed to trust you when you've all but said " I can't be trusted. "
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Caine's law.
And so, here at the end of days, you are as you’ve always been. Willing to die. Not willing to quit.

Vengeance is mine saith the Lord but this morning. He's going to fucking well have to share.

Is she worth it, would you burn the city to save her? For her, I'd burn the world.

LordBucket

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Re: [OOC] The Birth of Equestria (Everything's green)[6/6]
« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2013, 04:09:38 am »

I'm not sure I quite understand. Why would your character not want to swear an oath of obedience, if she is willing to work for them?

For someone to be trusted with a special title, equipment, responsibilities, etc, they should be obedient to their employer.

I suspect that this is another case of poor word choice, like fealty was. Have you in your entire life ever heard of any employer asking an employee to swear obedience? Have you ever promised to obey anyone you ever worked for? Would you?

No, it doesn't work that way. Obedience is not something expected of rational, intelligent people. Obedience is something people expect from children, pets...

...and slaves.

Semantics and word choice aside, do you see why Aurora especially would not do this? Do you see what you're asking her to do?

Quote
Even mercenaries have contracts.

Yes, to complete a specific task. The contract being proposed here: "obey us," is not reasonable. If Aurora were Basayen, and willing to simply lie about it, that wouldn't matter. But Aurora is an honorable mare. She's not going to lie about something like this just to get in the door.

Everything about this is unreasonable. It completely fails even a common sense test. Applicants are being asked to promise obedience to the ring. We haven't even been chosen yet, and apparently this is something that was expected for us to even talk to them. Working with your employer/employee metaphor from before, that would be like an employer requiring applicants to promise obedience even just to get an interview.

So look at Basayen. He swore an oath. What happens if they tell him he's not chosen to be a pioneer, and to go work the salt mines instead?

He has promised to do that.

Only someone who is either an idiot, lying, or simply not taking it very seriously would agree to the terms being requested. In this case, Rolepgeek made it pretty clear that Basayen is willing to lie, and  Patrick has established that his character is an idiot. Aurora is neither of things. She's an honorable mare who takes truth and honor seriously. This whole thing is a To Be Lawful or to be Good trap waiting to happen, and Aurora is unwilling to step into the trap.

This could go bad in so many ways.

What happens if the ring orders us to go slaughter an innocent village to make room for settlers? "Oh," you reply, "they probably wouldn't do that." Ok, that's nice. We can speculate all we want about what the ring probably will or probably won't command, but what the ring commands is not something Aurora is able to determine. What she can determine is whether she's going to promise to put herself in that kind of situation. What if they order us to spy on Glistens? That's entirely plausible and from their point of view it would be a perfectly reasonable thing for them to want to do, but it would put Aurora in a very difficult position.

What if the ring gives orders based on incorrect, incomplete or dated information? For example...what if they order us to kill a monster that's been harassing villagers, and when we get there it turns out that the villagers have been stealing its eggs and the creature is simply trying to get them back? If we're to "obey orders" we would simply kill it. That might not be the right thing to do. But it would be what we'd promised to do. What if they order us to hunt down and execute someone who'd, for example...stolen secret documents from the ring? But once we locate them, it turns out that the documents they'd stolen were evidence that certain member of the ring were conspiring with enemies of Equestria. The obvious thing to do would be to return and confront the ring with both that individual and the documents in tow. And, suppose we did that and they responded by accusing us of breaking our oath and conspiring with the very criminal they'd ordered us to execute? They'd be right.

What about the ring itself? Even they don't trust each other, and it's been established that the Trade Master has a history of engaging in secretive schemes. That's the whole reason why Sam is even here. No surprise that the Judge doesn't trust her, after all, his predecessor was murdered. Let's keep that in mind before we assume that the ring is fundamentally good and honorable and that everything they tell us to do is the right thing to do. Even they don't trust each other and keep secrets from one another. And yet we, total strangers who have just met them, are being asked to swear loyalty and obedience?

That is not an oath that Aurora can make in good faith. There are any number  of ways this could end badly. The above are just a few examples. Aurora is an honorable mare. She's unwilling to take an oath that could so easily and in so many ways result in her needing to choose between dishonoring herself by fulfilling that oath and doing something terrible, or dishonoring herself by failing to fulfill the oath.

"Whoever claims to be noble must conduct himself nobly."
 -- OED
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