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Author Topic: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread  (Read 78828 times)

RedKing

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2014, 08:05:43 pm »

Actually, it's a system with ancient roots, predating even the unified Chinese empire. Can't effectively tax millions of people if you don't know where they are.

And yeah, it's not like the restriction on movement is a Communist invention.
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smjjames

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2014, 08:10:39 pm »

Sounds similar to the Feudalism system with serfs, or at least that's the closest comparison that I can think of.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2014, 08:31:14 pm »

RedKing, do you have any book suggestions for Chinese history? Possibly several; I'm looking to go more in-depth than what you'd get in a world history textbook or a 200-page summary.
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mainiac

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2014, 09:01:40 pm »

I mean, is there no demand for housing that they can capitalize on? Building a high-end condo that remains abandoned does not seem like a sane way to invest your wealth, unless you're managing to make money by doing so. I'd suspect, illegally.

They think the increased depreciation from having the place occupied would be more then the market price of the rent.  There's a fair amount of bigotry towards low wage workers involved in this reckoning.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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RedKing

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2014, 10:56:51 pm »

Sounds similar to the Feudalism system with serfs, or at least that's the closest comparison that I can think of.
Very similar, although without the feudal contract. Or I suppose you could say that the feudal "lords" in this case are bureaucrats rather than hereditary nobles. They're not tied to a specific agricultural plot but are tied more or less to a specific village.

Again though, millions of people break the registration laws every year. It's very similar to the illegal immigration situation in the US -- they're tolerated by many employers and even municipal governments because they're an easily exploited source of cheap labor. With far less rights than migrant workers have here. I've seen guys welding girders at all hours of the morning, 20-30 stories up on a bamboo scaffold with no safety harness and no welding goggles or mask. One of the US engineers I was with was utterly aghast at that, saying that most of them will probably have spot blindness within a couple of years. Industrial and construction accidents are very common, and there's virtually no social safety net for floating people. If you get maimed in an accident, there's no OSHA, there's no court that you're going to win a lawsuit in. Best you can hope for is to get deported back to your home village and maybe your family can tend to you for the rest of your crippled life (along with paying your fine for having illegally migrated).

Otherwise, you might end up crawling around on the streets begging for change like one guy I saw in Shanghai....no arms, no legs. Just a torso and a bowl in his mouth for change. Or another pair I saw in Beijing, a blind man (looked like an industrial accident...I mean, the *sockets* were empty) singing as a young girl (who was missing half her face...I'd say an industrial solvent spill) cleared his path through the subway car and held out a bowl. It's incredibly disturbing, and yet most urban Chinese have become numb to it. I was scolded on more than one occasion not to give any money because then all the beggars would come like seagulls flocking. Which is true, but......good god damn.  :-[



@FearfulJesuit: I'll have to look through my library and pick out a few. I have a lot that aren't so good, too. In general, avoid any with titles like "The Rising Dragon" or things like that. There's a cottage industry of fearmongering books about what a looming threat the PRC is, and they often have very skewed interpretations of Chinese history and politics.


@mainiac: I don't think that's accurate at all. There were a lot of investors who sunk money into housing because in the late 90's there was a serious ramp-up in housing prices in places like Shanghai and Shenzhen because of a slew of young professionals emerged with money to spend and looking for apartments to rent. People who owned real estate when that began became filthy rich. So lots of these nouveau riche thought they'd try that too. But then the housing bubble overheated and the number of professionals plateaued. Not much different than what happened in the US in some places -- demand didn't keep up with projections. But after all the work that went into getting the permits, hiring the construction company, getting the materials, distributing the various kickbacks to grease the system, etc.....it's frankly cheaper to go ahead and build it than to scratch the plans altogether. At least then you *might* get lucky and have some tenants. Sort of a sunk-cost fallacy, but not that fallacious in this case because of the nature of guanxi (favors). Even if you're wasting money, you're gaining favors that you can cash in somewhere down the road.

Investing in China is still quite risky because of the arbitrary nature of government regulations and the fact that contract law is malleable in Chinese courts. What we would call criminal malfeasance and fraud here, they'd call business as usual. And investor savvy just isn't there in many cases.

The Shanghai stock exchange is another example. Most people I talked to likened it to playing pai jiu -- people just threw money in and crossed their fingers (and probably muttered a few Buddhist prayers) to see if they'd get lucky. It was like a game of chance but where skill can make a difference.
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Duuvian

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2014, 02:08:13 am »

RedKing, do you have any book suggestions for Chinese history? Possibly several; I'm looking to go more in-depth than what you'd get in a world history textbook or a 200-page summary.

If you'd like to read about 1950-1980ish Chinese agricultural reforms there is a book by a guy who's last name is Edmund or Edmunds (I think). I can try to find it around the house if you'd like to know the title and author; I thought it was well done from a neutral viewpoint. It's a collection of studies of local economies and labor practices near villages in a few provinces in China visited by various economists, some of them Jesuit priests working with a Californian University if I remember correctly. I found it in my Grandpa's basement.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 02:11:13 am by Duuvian »
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mainiac

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2014, 02:11:54 am »

@mainiac: I don't think that's accurate at all. There were a lot of investors who sunk money into housing because in the late 90's there was a serious ramp-up in housing prices in places like Shanghai and Shenzhen because of a slew of young professionals emerged with money to spend and looking for apartments to rent. People who owned real estate when that began became filthy rich. So lots of these nouveau riche thought they'd try that too. But then the housing bubble overheated and the number of professionals plateaued. Not much different than what happened in the US in some places -- demand didn't keep up with projections. But after all the work that went into getting the permits, hiring the construction company, getting the materials, distributing the various kickbacks to grease the system, etc.....it's frankly cheaper to go ahead and build it than to scratch the plans altogether. At least then you *might* get lucky and have some tenants. Sort of a sunk-cost fallacy, but not that fallacious in this case because of the nature of guanxi (favors). Even if you're wasting money, you're gaining favors that you can cash in somewhere down the road.

I feel like we are saying the same thing here.  An empty building is an asset even if it isn't going to be rented anytime soon.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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RedKing

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2014, 06:51:37 am »

But I don't see any kind of bigotry involved. The kind of hi-rises that were being talked about, they were never intended to be anything other than upscale housing for "middle class" urbanites.

The way you wrote it, it sounds like "Eww! I don't want *those* people living in my building, they'll wreck the place!"

Now, there's been some separate incidents where the government constructed housing for people being displaced by construction (the Three Gorges Dam for example) only to find that many of the farmers won't accept the buyout deal because they're being asked/forced to give up their agricultural land for cheap. Often this is because the local government is colluding with developers to get the land for them cheap.
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Sheb

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2014, 06:55:42 am »

Wait, doesn't the local government own the land? I though all those peasants had were leases.
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RedKing

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2014, 07:22:56 am »

Yes, and no. The village collectively owns the land, which is then managed by the local government. So if the local official decides that the village should sell a portion of their land to someone that wants to build a factory, the farmers don't get much say in the matter. In theory, the official should be getting the best deal possible for the farmers. But when the factory owner waves a stack of yuan in their face and promises to make their brother the factory manager....

This is of course illegal, and the CCP actually does take that kind of corruption seriously. Officials have been executed for such things. Which is why the local governments come down like a ton of bricks on anyone trying to fight them or expose them. There's the other issue that corruption scandals make the Party look bad. So higher-ups are then inclined to hush up the whole thing, even as they're trying to stamp out corruption. Because if *all* the local corruption were known it could jeopardize support for the Party and create civil unrest. And remember the Prime Directive of Chinese politics -- Preserve order and stability. There's also the fact that if your subordinate did something like this, you're in trouble too because you're responsible for them. And they were probably cutting you in on the deal to have you look the other way.

Its this schizophrenic approach to tackling corruption that is one of China's biggest problems, IMHO. I understand the dynamics of it, but the culture of protecting one's ass has got to change. Its also why the central government comes up with good ideas which then never get implemented.
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Descan

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2014, 08:33:40 am »

PTW :V
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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2014, 05:44:24 pm »

Bringing up pollution, this was recently announced by the Chinese government, which is to say 1 fifth of their arable land is polluted. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-27076645

I'd like to request that each of us as far as we are comfortable states our experience and relevant knowledge of East Asia, as we wont just be rambling on about current events (which i think is only loosely what we're browsing this for) and will be able to direct the conversation somewhere useful for all concerned. Redking gave a good example in the OP. I've picked up this and that from media, but nothing concrete.
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RedKing

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2014, 09:04:29 pm »

Bringing up pollution, this was recently announced by the Chinese government, which is to say 1 fifth of their arable land is polluted. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-27076645

Interesting bit from that article:
Quote
"Pollution is severe in three major industrial zones, the Yangtze River Delta in east China, the Pearl River Delta in south China and the northeast corner that used to be a heavy industrial hub," the agency said.

Remember where I said the three planned megacity complexes were?  :-\

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10ebbor10

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2014, 02:30:26 am »

Well duh. China has chronic population problems, by stuffing their citizens into heavily polluted areas, they reduce their lifetime, and free up valuable land for food production.
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Propman

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2014, 04:52:15 am »

>Not listing the Philippines in OP.

:(
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