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[mainiac]

as is inflation (which is kind of stunning considering over two decades of double-digit or near-double-digit growth)

Not if your rapidly restoring your trade balance.

Of course, there's a strange irony that's a bit unprecedented here. America's (and Europe's) postwar consumerism boom was accelerated in part by using Japan (and later Taiwan and Hong Kong) as our offshore factory, supplying American demand for cheap TVs and cars.

I question your chronology and suggest that American postwar consumerism was boosted by having 15 years of improvement in production finally start affecting consumer purchasing power after being held back by depression followed by wartime rationing.

2. Heterogenous population. India has more social divisions than you can shake a stick at. Caste, religion, linguistic, ethnic, ideological, historical, etc.  China is 98% ethnic Han and has been a unified state for most of the last 2000 years.

1) I dont think that's true
2) They have been an non-unified state for most of the last 200 years which is much more important.

[RedKing]

2. Heterogenous population. India has more social divisions than you can shake a stick at. Caste, religion, linguistic, ethnic, ideological, historical, etc.  China is 98% ethnic Han and has been a unified state for most of the last 2000 years.

1) I dont think that's true
2) They have been an non-unified state for most of the last 200 years which is much more important.

1. Which part?
2. If you're referring to Taiwan, it's only been 66 years, and Taiwan is relatively minor piece of China. Unless you're referring to India? 

[mainiac]

2. If you're referring to Taiwan, it's only been 66 years, and Taiwan is relatively minor piece of China. Unless you're referring to India? 

China spent the 19th century in intermittent civil wars during which warlords de facto ruled large swathes of the country.  This century included the bloodiest conflict in human history, the Taiping rebellion.  China spent the first 50 years of the 20th century in civil wars where warlords openly ruled most of the county and the president of China was fucking kidnapped that is an actual thing that happened.

I'm pretty sure that China didn't spend most of the preceeding 2 millenia unified either but I dont know my pre Qing history too well.  It's mostly that the Communist Party has been pushing the "One Land" narrative singlemindedly for the past 60 years and those who pay attention to China tend to credulously believe what the exotic foreigners say about their "ancient" "nation".

[Ukrainian Ranger]

China is 98% ethnic Han

I fail to believe this. Unless there are simple "language=ethnicity" kind of cheating.

[Baffler]

It's true. I could be wrong, but if I remember right historically there was a trend of other ethnic groups being subsumed into the 'Han' label, and that today a large number of what might have been called separate ethnic groups are just referred to as Han.

[RedKing]

2. If you're referring to Taiwan, it's only been 66 years, and Taiwan is relatively minor piece of China. Unless you're referring to India? 

China spent the 19th century in intermittent civil wars during which warlords de facto ruled large swathes of the country.  This century included the bloodiest conflict in human history, the Taiping rebellion.  China spent the first 50 years of the 20th century in civil wars where warlords openly ruled most of the county and the president of China was fucking kidnapped that is an actual thing that happened.

I'm pretty sure that China didn't spend most of the preceeding 2 millenia unified either but I dont know my pre Qing history too well.  It's mostly that the Communist Party has been pushing the "One Land" narrative singlemindedly for the past 60 years and those who pay attention to China tend to credulously believe what the exotic foreigners say about their "ancient" "nation".

It went through periods of mass fragmentation, but on the whole there was a single recognized "Imperial" government for the most part since 221BC. I'd have to disagree with the idea that during the rebellions (of which there have been MANY over the last two thousand years), China doesn't qualify as a unified state. The Taiping Rebellion lasted 14 years and at its fullest extent controlled about three provinces in total. And that was the largest rebellion in Chinese (or world) history. The bulk of China was still under Imperial control, and the areas under Taiping control were quickly reintegrated into the Imperial system after the rebellion. There wasn't time for governmental and cultural differences to take root.

Now, the warlord era of the 1930's...yeah, that's legit disunity more akin to the Ten Kingdoms and Five Dynasties period, where there really wasn't anybody in charge.


In India by contrast, it wasn't that there was a single Grand Maharajah and lots of rebellious states, it was lots of states with no overall hegemon. For a very long time, in between the periods where an outsider would come in and conquer most or all of the place (Mughals, British). And even then, they tended to leave the local rajas in control of their fiefdoms, so those regional differences had a long time to take root.

But hey, what do I know, I'm just one of those people who pay attention to China, ergo I'm swallowing that Commie propaganda, right?

China is 98% ethnic Han

I fail to believe this. Unless there are simple "language=ethnicity" kind of cheating.

Actually, you're correct. It's down to about 92% now days. And it comes partly from having a relatively broad definition of "Han" (and from a purely biological standpoint, northern Chinese are going to be different in ancestry from southern Chinese) and partly from just demographics -- the central and coastal plains support a population orders of magnitude larger than the peripheries, which is where most of the recognized ethnic minorities reside.

Linguistically, China is much more diverse, with just the Han population speaking 80+ different dialects.

[nenjin]

But hey, what do I know, I'm just one of those people who pay attention to China, ergo I'm swallowing that Commie propaganda, right?

You do have Red in your name.

*narrows gaze*

[RedKing]

But hey, what do I know, I'm just one of those people who pay attention to China, ergo I'm swallowing that Commie propaganda, right?

You do have Red in your name.

*narrows gaze*

I also have King. Check and mate. 

[mainiac]

The Taiping Rebellion lasted 14 years and at its fullest extent controlled about three provinces in total.

Other rebellions were happening concurrently and the next generation of rebellions started before Taiping was even done.

But the point isn't that rebels controlled the country, it's that warlords controlled the country.  Theodric and Odoacer allegedly ruled Italy in the name of the eastern roman emperor but we dont say that Italy and the eastern roman empire were united in the 5th and 6th centuries before Justinian.  Likewise the emperor in China nominally ruled the country continuously in the 19th century but in reality it was divided.  If we applied the same standards to western history that we apply to the Chinese "nation", Rome didn't fall until 1919.

[RedKing]

And by your logic, the United States ceased to exist from 1861-1865.

[Descan]

Not... really. :/?

[RedKing]

Mea culpa, I didn't see the bit distinguishing between rebellion and control.

And again, I'd have to say that with the 1930's, you have a valid point. With the 19th century, or most of Chinese history (not including the aforementioned interregnums) you don't.


Now if you wanted to quibble with the Japanese narrative of an "unbroken Empire", I'd say you totally have a case. While the Imperial bloodline was not broken, Imperial control most certainly was, and rarely constituted actual control of Japan. And I never said that China had an unbroken succession, rather that when the normal hereditary succession broke down, you had one unitary dynastic state replaced with another unitary dynastic state, both calling themselves China and having more or less the same borders and governmental structure.

Why is it that we always winding up in a pissing match about semantics, for no real benefit to the discussion? I still stand by my intial broad point -- China has not been a gazillion little countries for most of its history, India has. If you want to quibble on the specifics, whatever. I'm done with that line of argument.

[Loud Whispers]

Explosions in China for no reason confirmed, though the fact that they happened in a chemicals warehouse suggests the chemicals decided to explode.

[Frumple]

Sounded like improperly stored/transported stuff, from what showed up elsewhere. Which is... usually the cause for sudden explosions in a chemical warehouse, yes.

Still a bit too early to actually tell, especially considering the situation on the ground.

[mainiac]

And by your logic, the United States ceased to exist from 1861-1865.

Necroquote but the new posts made me see this again and now I'm can't stop thinking how John Fremont missed the obvious chance to declare himself Emperor of Missouri and Protector of Arkansas in 1861.