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[Dirst]

Does anyone happen to know what happens if a fort has a building that is not on the entity's PERMITTED_BUILDING list?  Can the dwarves still use it assuming the entity has the right PERMITTED_REACTIONs?

[Bearskie]

Noob as hell here, trying to get into modding. Would appreciate it greatly if you could answer several basic questions I had about creature modding:

1. I know body detail plans are alot more quicker to write, but will there be any disadvantage if I manually declared tissues, materials, layering every step of the way? Will this slow down the game?

2. In the raws when declaring materials/tissues with body detail plans, those which are not needed are removed by the [REMOVE MATERIAL/TISSUE:...] tokens. Is it necessary to do so for everything that is not needed?

3. How are tissue layers ordered? What makes bones go underneath fat for example. Especially if I was to layer manually, say, inserting a layer of rock on the outside of a bronze colossus? Closest reference I've seen has been the Iron Man raws, which use [TISSUE_LAYER_UNDER:...].

[Dirst]

Noob as hell here, trying to get into modding. Would appreciate it greatly if you could answer several basic questions I had about creature modding:

1. I know body detail plans are alot more quicker to write, but will there be any disadvantage if I manually declared tissues, materials, layering every step of the way? Will this slow down the game?

2. In the raws when declaring materials/tissues with body detail plans, those which are not needed are removed by the [REMOVE MATERIAL/TISSUE:...] tokens. Is it necessary to do so for everything that is not needed?

3. How are tissue layers ordered? What makes bones go underneath fat for example. Especially if I was to layer manually, say, inserting a layer of rock on the outside of a bronze colossus? Closest reference I've seen has been the Iron Man raws, which use [TISSUE_LAYER_UNDER:...].

1. Not that I am aware of, it all basically gets copy-pasted into the creature anyway.  Body plans, however, are not optional.  You can't define a bodypart inside a creature token.

2. Not removing it consumes a bit of memory, and in cases where you reference a non-existent material (e.g., typo) the default might turn out to be one of the unused materials.

3. Other than the special case you mentioned, tissue layers are like dipping candles: later additions are on the outside.  If you were to apply iron at the end of a normal human, it would have an iron layer outside the skin.  You can see this in action by looking at how fingernails are applied (though in that case, the layer is only applied to one side of the bodypart).

Edit: Fixed a typo in my explanation of what happens when there is a typo in the raws.

[Bearskie]

Interesting. And jeez, that was a fast response. Since you're here anyway...

4. What is the body_rcp file for? Does it differ in any way from the body_default, and can I freely use anything from the body_rcp as I would from the body_default file?

5. Also, for a BP like regular arms which has [CONTYPE:UPPERBODY], does this mean that if I have ten [UPPERBODY] body parts, I will get ten sets of arms, with most of the arms sharing the same name and stuff?

Definitely clears the air some bit, thanks!

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

Noob as hell here, trying to get into modding. Would appreciate it greatly if you could answer several basic questions I had about creature modding:

1. I know body detail plans are alot more quicker to write, but will there be any disadvantage if I manually declared tissues, materials, layering every step of the way? Will this slow down the game?

2. In the raws when declaring materials/tissues with body detail plans, those which are not needed are removed by the [REMOVE MATERIAL/TISSUE:...] tokens. Is it necessary to do so for everything that is not needed?

3. How are tissue layers ordered? What makes bones go underneath fat for example. Especially if I was to layer manually, say, inserting a layer of rock on the outside of a bronze colossus? Closest reference I've seen has been the Iron Man raws, which use [TISSUE_LAYER_UNDER:...].

1. BDPs allow you to quickly define or create materials and tissues (which use the materials) for a creature so that you may use it faster when creating (would you rather a BDP that will quickly add BONE, FAT, and MUSCLE or do you want to manually define [MATERIAL:BONE][STATE_NAME:SOLID:BONE].... or [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:BONE:BONE_TEMPLATE] where all the presets are done it is completely up to you on you preference of making a batch of creatures, a really long creature definition, or having that one very custom one)

2. Anything not needed you don't have to remove, however that creature still has them (in their code, maybe applied for game mechanics to act against, Like most creatures with SKIN have LEATHER however you don't see LEATHER layering them because it's used for the tanning reaction, but since the creature still owns that LEATHER you get things like "fox leather" when skin is tanned)

They can be removed if you wish, it will have a slight performance boost (to a great boost depending on how deep you go with cleanup) it's better to just hope your BDPs are adding the bare minimum that you need so you can add the rest manually (My honest opinion, someone will argue this)

3. Tissue layers are more or less how I call "Painted On" for you're example of Bone being under the Fat, it's as simple as Layering the Bone 1st then Layering the Fat, then whatever else you want over the Fat

Things like Tissue Layer Under/Over I don't fully understand, as in:
a. Does it place the layer under the last layer
b. Does it attach the layer to the last layer as an undercoating/coating
So if the last one was SKIN under/over would hug the new tissue on the respected side, so if creature was flayed/skinned alive that under/over layer would go with it

Tips:
Creature Modding falls into a bunch of areas that make it difficult to manage right
You have your CASTEs which normally is MALE and FEMALE for breeding pairs that help the creature survive the generations
You have Tissues+Materials which the only thing that gets complicated are the tags on tissues and how they effect BodyParts
You have the Body (which should be created BEFORE tissue layering, order of events, don't try to paint a house when it's not built yet)
Stats Mental and Physical, each stat will effect different actions (some are purely social interaction)
Behavior (Aggressive, Skittish, Adv. Mode ambush times, is it a predator(ambush or chase) etc etc)
Interactions (Some creatures don't, but something like the Giant Cave Spider spits webs that's an interaction. Fire Imp throwing fireballs, Dragons Fire)
Attacks (What Body part to hit with, stats for the hit, does it have an attack that injects a material (snake bites))
Settings like Max age, litter size(optional to include, default is 1-2 with a chance for 3) does it lay eggs, does it fly, can it swim, is it able to breathe underwater

And it gets more insane when you want to make a complex creature/race using many CASTES some tags are CREATURE level only like Tissues and Materials, but some are CASTE level like BODY, FLIER, and TISSUE_LAYER

I have several creatures that have each caste it's own style, more arms for one, wings on the other, one is made from rock, one is metal, scales, etc etc. These types of creatures have to be planned or thought out as of what materials you need, tissues, what tissues are FUNCTIONAL(Brain, Eyes, Spine tissues) how to easily layer them on the creature do you use a BDP do you simply layer by BP_CATEGORY, ID, TYPE so many ways to do it.

Pre-Edit:

4. I believe the Body-RCP is for the randomly generated creatures the game uses, I've never modified it for fear of my mod crashing

5. Yes IF you had 10 upperbodies it would get it's own version of your part that attaches to them if there happened to be more than you'd get upperbody 1's upper right arm > upperbody 2's lower right arm, etc etc for each one. Naming gets a bit weird

[Dirst]

Interesting. And jeez, that was a fast response. Since you're here anyway...

4. What is the body_rcp file for? Does it differ in any way from the body_default, and can I freely use anything from the body_rcp as I would from the body_default file?

5. Also, for a BP like regular arms which has [CONTYPE:UPPERBODY], does this mean that if I have ten [UPPERBODY] body parts, I will get ten sets of arms, with most of the arms sharing the same name and stuff?

Definitely clears the air some bit, thanks!

4. The rcp files are for randomly-generated creatures like demons and forgotten beasts.  They are valid BODY tokens if you want to use them.

5. Yes, that is how you end up a set of fingers on each hand.  Though I'm not sure you can actually have more than one UPPERBODY (it is the root that all other bodyparts connect to).  CONTYPE is convenient because it doesn't depend on the specific token used for the base bodypart.

Ninja'd by Hugo_The_Dwarf.  Because he's awesome.

[Bearskie]

Took me some time to understand body parts and tissues; and now you're telling me that the rabbit hole goes on even further?

Nah, both of you are awesome. Seriously, thanks for all the help. I'll see what I can do...

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

I forgot to mention that Body Detail Plans also allow for quick layering for body parts and they also can control body part positioning (I have not seen anywhere yet (34.xx era) that let you do that in a creature, looks to be a BDP exclusive) by positioning I mean (Front, Top, Left, Right, Around) things like ribs are Around lungs, heart, etc so when broken they have a chance to puncture their wrapped organs (body part)

and for 2. not every material needs a tissue, like I mentioned about attacks, you don't need a venom layer (don't need if you like to have venom instead of fat or tucked away somewhere your choice you are the creator) but everything starts with a material and then branches from there. As tissues are simply what make up the creature, that can get hit, removed, butchered, melted etc but they are still made of the material they target (something with the tissue using WATER as a solid would melt and die in non freezing areas)

pre-edit:
Yeah I'd say the easiest thing to Mod is Reactions and weapons/armor after that everything else has it's do's and don'ts and limits which gets baffling if you dive head first too fast

[Bearskie]

So how do water and snow FBs stay intact? Just curious since you mentioned that water example.

[Dirst]

So how do water and snow FBs stay intact? Just curious since you mentioned that water example.

DF is perfectly willing to make bodyparts out of liquid materials.  You need to specify that it leaks if you want it to gush out of a wound, otherwise it's just cartoony.

As for stuff that ought to melt, temperature isn't checked for every thing every tick.  And for extra fun the arena seems to behave differently than the real game.  A randomly-generated creature made of snow might wander the tunnels just fine until it got in the same tile as one of your dwarves... and be melted because the dwarf's homeotherm caused a temperature update for the beast's materials.

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

I believe it's because their tissue is defined as the liquid state, which means there is no change in state which disrupts the order of what the tissue thinks it should be, if that makes any sense? Hard for me to explain, like if I said the creatures skin is WATER and I want it SOLID (ice) and it warms up (because I didn't set something with a fixed temp to keep it cool) when it warms up the tissue material is now LIQUID, Tissue sees that it's material is no longer the required state, falls apart (releases material as the changed state, Pool of liquid, or cloud of gas)

As for the Snow FBs I think the same thing only they have a fixed temp (or a special clause) to make sure they don't melt. Because there are vomit FBs and the like and that's a liquid

I know I have made zombie creatures but didn't want them to bleed to death but still bleed (Excluding the BLOOD tag will prevent bleeding, or made up of tissue with no VASCULAR, easy route is remove BLOOD) so had to tissue layer under a fake blood tissue (without TISSUE_LEAKS, this tag for liquids will just have it all pour onto the ground at once) so combat that broke skin would also break off some of the blood layer spilling it, but the layer wouldn't leak/disappear

[CulixCupric]

I believe it's because their tissue is defined as the liquid state, which means there is no change in state which disrupts the order of what the tissue thinks it should be, if that makes any sense? Hard for me to explain, like if I said the creatures skin is WATER and I want it SOLID (ice) and it warms up (because I didn't set something with a fixed temp to keep it cool) when it warms up the tissue material is now LIQUID, Tissue sees that it's material is no longer the required state, falls apart (releases material as the changed state, Pool of liquid, or cloud of gas)

As for the Snow FBs I think the same thing only they have a fixed temp (or a special clause) to make sure they don't melt. Because there are vomit FBs and the like and that's a liquid

I know I have made zombie creatures but didn't want them to bleed to death but still bleed (Excluding the BLOOD tag will prevent bleeding, or made up of tissue with no VASCULAR, easy route is remove BLOOD) so had to tissue layer under a fake blood tissue (without TISSUE_LEAKS, this tag for liquids will just have it all pour onto the ground at once) so combat that broke skin would also break off some of the blood layer spilling it, but the layer wouldn't leak/disappear

maybe make them of a faux ice, and when they die they drop an ice boulder the way bronze colossi drop a bronze statue. or can you not tack that into the part that would make them of the fake ice mat?

Code: [Select]

[ITEMCORPSE:BOULDER:NO_SUBTYPE:NONE:ICE]
[ITEMCORPSE_QUALITY:5]

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

-snip-

Code: [Select]

[ITEMCORPSE:BOULDER:NO_SUBTYPE:NONE:ICE]
[ITEMCORPSE_QUALITY:5]

You would want [ITEMCORPSE:BOULDER:NO_SUBTYPE:WATER:NONE]
which will drop a boulder of water, which if you were not in a freezing location would just become a puddle of water (Freezing biome would make it "ice")

#   Token   Information
0   INORGANIC   Placeholder for rock, used in arena mode. When given a subtype, selects a user-defined inorganic material.
1   AMBER   Amber
2   CORAL   Coral
3   GLASS_GREEN   Green glass
4   GLASS_CLEAR   Clear glass
5   GLASS_CRYSTAL   Crystal glass
6   WATER   Water, when placed in buckets or when mining out ice.
7   COAL   Coal - subtype is either COKE or CHARCOAL.
8   POTASH   Potash
9   ASH   Ash
10   PEARLASH   Pearlash
11   LYE   Lye
12   MUD   Mud
13   VOMIT   Vomit
14   SALT   Salt
15   FILTH_B   Filth (brown, solid)
16   FILTH_Y   Filth (yellow, liquid)
17   UNKNOWN_SUBSTANCE   Unknown substance (white, liquid)
18   GRIME   Grime

this list (Excluding INORGANIC) have no subtype, they are just Material:NONE example:
[PRODUCT:100:1:WOOD:NONE:ASH:NONE] would make a log of ash

But like Dirst said

As for stuff that ought to melt, temperature isn't checked for every thing every tick.  And for extra fun the arena seems to behave differently than the real game.  A randomly-generated creature made of snow might wander the tunnels just fine until it got in the same tile as one of your dwarves... and be melted because the dwarf's homeotherm caused a temperature update for the beast's materials.

I have creatures that transform into another caste of themselves with a special part that is suppose to fall off, so it's connector part is made from a material that melts, after the transformation it takes roughly 500-800 game ticks for it to register that it has to melt.

Note: Not trying to shoot you down Culix, there are many ways to go about this, Meph has Frost Giants and I believe they are made from a custom Ice that he made so they can survive in the hottest of locations and not melt and die, but still be made from Ice, So your method of making a Faux Ice is viable.

[Dirst]

I have creatures that transform into another caste of themselves with a special part that is suppose to fall off, so it's connector part is made from a material that melts, after the transformation it takes roughly 500-800 game ticks for it to register that it has to melt.

Oh, I have such painful memories of trying to make that kind of thing work.  And it was an intermediate step in a complicated process that didn't really have anything to do with melting.  Thankfully Warmist came up with a DFHack script for v0.34 that accomplished the end goal, and I never had to include melty bits again.

My recollection is that the melty part would show up as "burned" fairly quickly, but take a while to actually melt.

[CulixCupric]

Note: Not trying to shoot you down Culix, there are many ways to go about this, Meph has Frost Giants and I believe they are made from a custom Ice that he made so they can survive in the hottest of locations and not melt and die, but still be made from Ice, So your method of making a Faux Ice is viable.

No offense taken, I appreciate the response, input, and advice. I don't know much about forgotten beast/titan/clown gen.