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[USEC_OFFICER]

I think that almost everyone would be surprised if Josh actually managed to finish the game at some point in the future, after everything that has happened with the project. The debate mostly seems to between 'The kickstarter was a scam and Josh is a fraud' and 'The kickstarter was legitimate but Josh couldn't handle things'. Not defending the existence of the game but Josh's intentions to make one from the very beginning.

[lordcooper]

It's SOP throughout most of the industry to script demo builds.  The vast majority of pre-release dev walkthroughs and the like are scripted so that they can demonstrate the features they want to in what they perceive as the ideal circumstances and avoid giving away anything deemed spoilery or risk having the whole thing derailed by bugs/incomplete features.  There's nothing inherently nefarious about it as a practice.

As for the 'mostly working game in 2014', there are at least three realistic reasons for it not being subsequently produced.

1. This was prior to the (admittedly overly ambitious) stretch goals being met, which necessitated major rewrites.  I wouldn't be particularly surprised if it was a case of going back to the drawing board for a lot of underlying systems.

2. We know the dev is, to put it gently, disorganised.  I'm not prepared to assume he adhered to strict version control throughout the entire period of development.  It's fully possible that said files simply no longer exist in that form.  Hell, even professional AAA studios have lost access to their source code in the past, and I'm talking entire released games here rather than merely a several years old build.

3. He simply doesn't want people to see a WIP.  As much as this being the sole reason would annoy me, I could still empathise with this.  I shudder at the mere thought of someone poring over and critiquing my unfinished work.

I'm not saying it's definitely all legit.  Mainly because I'm not quite big headed enough to present my assumptions as indisputable fact (cough cough).  I'm saying there's no particularly definitive evidence either way and freaking out whenever someone casts doubt on your Proclamation From On High does nothing but make you (general you, there's more than one person doing this) look like a bit of a prat.

I will say that if it is a scam (and it might be) then Josh needs to get an award for being the world's dumbest scammer.  Far less effort could have been put into maintaining a thin veneer of legitimacy, and popping up every now and again with a video would be more than a little counterproductive.  If I'd scammed people out of some cash then I'd do my best to avoid reminding them of this on a semi-regular basis.

[SangerZonvolt]

I think that almost everyone would be surprised if Josh actually managed to finish the game at some point in the future, after everything that has happened with the project. The debate mostly seems to between 'The kickstarter was a scam and Josh is a fraud' and 'The kickstarter was legitimate but Josh couldn't handle things'. Not defending the existence of the game but Josh's intentions to make one from the very beginning.

I would agree with you but:

"I don't think this can be fake. "

"Great to see the update, and it's looking very interesting."

"I, for one, am still hyped "

"This has actually shocked me (in a good way). I was literally just considering That Which Sleeps this time last week, and I went over to the Forum to see if there was anything at all; then seeing this is just fantastic."

"Oh, with all of this excellent progress, when will we be submitting names for NPCs and Adventurers?"


Taken in no particular order from the KS comments section after his last update.

The newest one is my favorite:"Anybody that's being negative, please check the YouTube. It's obvious that this IS a game with mechanics that will see a full release."
There are not only people believing it could come out. There are people who say its OBVIOUS that it will come out, why are we even doubting?

[USEC_OFFICER]

'Almost everyone on Bay12'.

Better?

[SangerZonvolt]

'Almost everyone on Bay12'.

Better?

Would be better if there wasn´t that comment two posts above you 

[lordcooper]

In fairness, I'd actually be a bit surprised to get an email with a Steam key at any point in the near future.  Although I'd be slightly more surprised to find out it was all an unnecessarily elaborate scam that keeps resurfacing in more detailed forms because .

As far as I'm concerned the smart money is on 'bit off way more than he can chew and it's very slowly proceeding through development hell', but I'm not completely convinced of this.  Colour me agnostic but vaguely hopeful.

[Cruxador]

As far as I'm concerned the smart money is on 'bit off way more than he can chew and it's very slowly proceeding through development hell', but I'm not completely convinced of this.  Colour me agnostic but vaguely hopeful.

This is what I think too, but besides just having more than he can chew, I suspect he's not doing a good job of prioritizing development areas, and is alternating between working on time consuming things (content) or perhaps even doing nothing meaningful at all for extended periods of time, because of anxiety with the difficulties he may be facing when working on mechanics. I think this because his output looks a lot like when I fall into a similar trap while working on very large projects. I do think that the game will probably come out eventually, but not any time soon. Either he will need to work through everything at his own pace (which may never happen - there's always things to improve on) or he'll have to buckle down and really just do whatever he can in the areas that are sticking him up so far. He already had one such crisis where he had to throw out his ideal AI plan and do something different, but it seems like he needs another such kick in the pants to actually release something.

[Damiac]

I think that almost everyone would be surprised if Josh actually managed to finish the game at some point in the future, after everything that has happened with the project. The debate mostly seems to between 'The kickstarter was a scam and Josh is a fraud' and 'The kickstarter was legitimate but Josh couldn't handle things'. Not defending the existence of the game but Josh's intentions to make one from the very beginning.

You're skipping the third option, the one that seems most likely to me.
The kickstarter was funded with the aid of fraudulent statements that Josh probably believed he could make true over time, but couldn't.

Josh's intentions don't really matter, the claims he made matter. The claims can still be found in the kickstarter.

If you choose to believe that he's not releasing anything for some reason other than he doesn't have it, then you don't believe it's fraud.
If you choose to believe that he's not releasing anything because he never had anything, then you do believe it's fraud.

I'd say all evidence points to fraud, especially given a history of faking other stuff, and the state of what software was released, but that's where anyone's ability to prove anything ends (except Josh). I'd say it's certainly worthwhile to pursue all avenues of justice available if you are out money on this, but obviously you shouldn't throw good money after bad. FTC and AG are free to contact, enough complaints could cause some action, including the release of said prototype game, which would obviously prove it wasn't fraud after all.

Those would seem to be the facts as we know them, but obviously other people interpret things differently.  I only hope we can agree on the basic facts, since we seem to have been over them so many times.

[USEC_OFFICER]

The kickstarter was funded with the aid of fraudulent statements that Josh probably believed he could make true over time, but couldn't.

That's... not fraud? What?

[ZeroGravitas]

The kickstarter was funded with the aid of fraudulent statements that Josh probably believed he could make true over time, but couldn't.

That's... not fraud? What?

of course it's fraud. have you not been reading this thread that you've been posting in?

if he knowingly made a false statement for the purpose of getting people to take some action based on it, to his benefit, that's fraud.

IT DOESN'T MATTER if he intended to release the game the whole time. it doesn't matter if he thought the extra money would give him the resources he needed to ACTUALLY finish the game. if he lied to make the kickstarter look better at all, it's fraud.

that's why it mattered when nenjin said fraud required malice. it DOESN'T. sure, he could have maliciously ripped everyone off, that's fraud. but if he just overstated the progress he had already achieved, thinking he would have plenty of money and time to finish, guess what? that's fraud too.

[birdy51]

One thing has been weighing on me a little bit. In the video, Josh referred to the development team as a 'we', as opposed to I or anything like that. Is he currently working along with others yet?

[USEC_OFFICER]

that's why it mattered when nenjin said fraud required malice. it DOESN'T.

I believe that fraud requires malice, and every legal definition I've seen suggest is does, but I'm not sure I posted that in the thread yet. So no. I don't think that counts as fraud. Thinking that he had the time and money to finish the prototype he had prevents it from being fraud. It's a statement of belief, not one of fact.

[ndkid]

that's why it mattered when nenjin said fraud required malice. it DOESN'T.

I believe that fraud requires malice, and every legal definition I've seen suggest is does, but I'm not sure I posted that in the thread yet. So no. I don't think that counts as fraud. Thinking that he had the time and money to finish the prototype he had prevents it from being fraud. It's a statement of belief, not one of fact.

A reasonable general source for the elements of a fraud gives:
(1) a false statement of a material fact,
(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue,
(3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim,
(4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and
(5) injury to the alleged victim as a result

My questions for you:
a) Does (3) meet your definition of "malice"?
b) Do you feel that there is a required element to the crime of fraud not covered in the above breakdown?
c) If so, do you have a source from your set of "every legal definition" you've seen that contains an element not covered by the five above that meets your definition of "malice"?
d) Do you feel that one of the elements above was not met in the statements made as part of the KS campaign?

To me, I suspect the differences in opinion mostly hinge on how we interpret statements like:
"By waiting until we have a fully functional and working game engine we feel like we successfully mitigated the most common risks that many games on Kickstarter face. We have a working game that we will complete and deliver in a timely fashion."

[Cruxador]

One thing has been weighing on me a little bit. In the video, Josh referred to the development team as a 'we', as opposed to I or anything like that. Is he currently working along with others yet?

Not necessarily. I normally use "we" to refer to my business even though I don't have my employees.

[USEC_OFFICER]

-snip-

3) is where the malice bit comes in. Intent to deceive is inherently malicious. The five statements are exactly what I've read too.

You are very right that how people interpret those statements influences their viewpoints. At worst I don't think that Josh and Joe knew that those statements were false when they made them. They were doing what all salespeople do and puffing up what they had to sell it to others. Others obviously disagree.