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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 70 (27.6%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 113 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 582518 times)

Angle

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1410 on: March 26, 2015, 02:42:50 pm »

I'll also note, I don't need to believe that. I'm pretty confident that the chair wont break, and if it does, fine. I'll pick myself up off the floor and clean up the mess.
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1411 on: March 26, 2015, 02:43:17 pm »

free will. (here comes the war)

This does not answer the question.
God gave all creatures free will. That was his choice in creation. The angels have free will as well although we do not know if they succumb to it as easily as humans. God put the tree in the garden as our free will. Adam and Eve had the choice to eat it or not eat it. They chose wrong.
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1412 on: March 26, 2015, 02:47:07 pm »

What is your question then, I have already said why he pt the tree in the garden.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1413 on: March 26, 2015, 02:48:28 pm »

I think that the argument is that the tree being accessible was part of free will. In which case, why weren't there a billion other options? Hell, we still have free will, right? So where's the tree now? Shouldn't we have the option to take another bite, or try the other tree out, etc, etc?
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1414 on: March 26, 2015, 02:49:16 pm »

He put the tree there to give Adam and Eve a choice and therefore-free will. If he had nothing they could mess up, there would be no free will.
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Rolan7

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1415 on: March 26, 2015, 02:51:56 pm »

Quote from: Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

It's details like this which sometimes make me wish I believed, because God is so often written as a villain being set up to be defeated.

Edit: If only we had a hero like Prometheus, to steal the fruit as he stole the secret of fire.
Look at it this way: If God had truly wanted Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, why did He put it there in the first place?

Maybe it was a test, and they actually passed, proving humanity was ready for the trials to come.  A non-benevolent God who just wants an interesting world full of suffering and heroism is possible.

Re: faith
I think origamiscienceguy was making the point that all statements have to be taken on faith, because we're never 100% sure of anything at all.  Even though it takes very little faith to be confident your chair won't collapse.  I don't know if that's the same thing, though.  Trusting in my chair is an unconscious action I don't waste time thinking about (well, until now :P).  Maybe I'm aware of the risk, but it's so slight that considering it is a waste of time.  Because if we doubt everything we observe, as we theoretically should, we become lost in ineffectual sophistry.

It might not be faith, just efficient ignorance of far-out possibilities.  Semantics, maybe, but it's also semantics to equate "I believe my chair won't break" to "I believe our loving God flooded the world and only one family remained, along with two of every animal, in a boat".  At best, the scales are wildly different.  (As for that specific example, I know most Christians today consider the flood story to be allegorical or incomplete)
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1416 on: March 26, 2015, 02:54:36 pm »

Wow. Someones chair in my Physics class just broke.
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Rolan7

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1417 on: March 26, 2015, 02:55:42 pm »

I actually believe you  :o
I believe in confirmation bias too, but I still get a kick out of coincidences.
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She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

origamiscienceguy

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1418 on: March 26, 2015, 02:57:18 pm »

he was leaning back in it at the time, so that must have dont something.
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1419 on: March 26, 2015, 03:00:51 pm »

both are true. But in order to make an incorrect choice, you have to have an incorrect choice to make.
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andrea

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1420 on: March 26, 2015, 03:02:47 pm »

you can have free will without any choice being possible, but if there is nothing to choose, how different is that from not having free will?

origamiscienceguy

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1421 on: March 26, 2015, 03:03:21 pm »

Exactly. Thanks for translating for me.  :)
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"'...It represents the world. They [the dwarves] plan to destroy it.' 'WITH SOAP?!'" -legend of zoro (with some strange interperetation)

origamiscienceguy

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1422 on: March 26, 2015, 03:06:48 pm »

I realise that I must have sounded confusing. Andrea said what I meant.

you can have free will without any choice being possible, but if there is nothing to choose, how different is that from not having free will?
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"'...It represents the world. They [the dwarves] plan to destroy it.' 'WITH SOAP?!'" -legend of zoro (with some strange interperetation)

origamiscienceguy

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1423 on: March 26, 2015, 03:16:07 pm »

Yes.
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Rolan7

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: Yet Another Thread
« Reply #1424 on: March 26, 2015, 03:19:13 pm »

Makes sense.  It's like game design.  If there are no choices, there's no free will.  If all but one of the choices are plainly wrong, there's practically no free will.  There needed to be an actual choice between blind obedience and the hope of something better.  Or between safety and greed.
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She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.
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