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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[Askot Bokbondeler]

God mindcontrolling everyone would utterly thwart the purpose of life

Nobody is asking for that, just that he zaps assholes out of existence the moment they decide to do something that would, idk, infringe on somebody elses free will terminally. Also, natural deaths, especially en masse or among young people. I would argue that they kinda get in the way of free will more than preventing them would.
What does he want us to learn after all? How to navigate the maze of death he set up for us?

[origamiscienceguy]

God didn't cause disease or death, that was Adam and Eve back in the garden of Eden (and Satan too)

[Angle]

That's not faith. That's people justifying whatever they want to do because they want to do it - any reason works for that.  All political ideologies have been used that way.  Atheism has been used to justify its own share of incredible atrocities.   

The problem isn't whatever principle people are using to justify their sins. The problem is that people will use anything to justify what they want to do so they don't feel bad about doing things that are wrong.

Thats true to a degree, but the thing is, when someone justifies they're beliefs with something resembling logic, then you can argue with them, and have a chance to change their mind. What do you do when someone just replies with "I have faith and nothing you can say or do will change that."? You can't argue with that. You can't use reason or logic. You can try and bludgeon them with emotional appeals, but that's rarely effective. You basically are reduced to either giving up or resorting to force - "If you refuse to serve gay people, then we'll boycott your restaurant." and such. If I'm doing something you don't like, you can argue with me. You can use reason and logic, and I might listen and change my mind. But I have no such recourse against you.

[origamiscienceguy]

You have to have faith in practically everything in life. You have to have faith that the chair you are sitting on won't break, you have to have faith that your computer won't crash, you have to have faith that the big bang theory is true. So everybody can relate to it.

[Rolan7]

God didn't cause disease or death, that was Adam and Eve back in the garden of Eden (and Satan too)

Oddly, yeah.  While God lay a multitude of permanent family curses on Adam and Eve for their disobedience, he didn't specifically take their immortality.  He warned them they would die if they ate from the Tree of Good and Evil, and apparently he was right.

He did, however, keep them from recovering their immortality:

3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

It's details like this which sometimes make me wish I believed, because God is so often written as a villain being set up to be defeated.

Edit: If only we had a hero like Prometheus, to steal the fruit as he stole the secret of fire.

[origamiscienceguy]

It's details like this which sometimes make me wish I believed, because God is so often written as a villain being set up to be defeated.

What's stopping you?

[Frumple]

God didn't cause disease or death, that was Adam and Eve back in the garden of Eden (and Satan too)

Uh... yeah, damning billions upon billions to suffer and die for the actions of two individuals who were functionally brain damaged is... a bit disproportionate. Just a titch.

[origamiscienceguy]

Think about it honestly, would you have done the same thing?

[Helgoland]

3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

It's details like this which sometimes make me wish I believed, because God is so often written as a villain being set up to be defeated.

Edit: If only we had a hero like Prometheus, to steal the fruit as he stole the secret of fire.

Look at it this way: If God had truly wanted Adam and Eve not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, why did He put it there in the first place?

[origamiscienceguy]

free will. (here comes the war)

[Rolan7]

It's details like this which sometimes make me wish I believed, because God is so often written as a villain being set up to be defeated.

What's stopping you?

From believing?  Hrm...
I guess the main, simplest reason is that I tried.  I was young, and in a bad place emotionally, and I needed some comfort and purpose to keep going.  So I prayed to Jesus, in whatever way he might actually exist, and didn't receive any response.

Instead I relied on certain people (also skeptics) and the beauty of nature.  So, that's what I believe in now - friendship and natural beauty.

I don't believe in Prometheus just because the story kicks ass, any more than I believe in God.

[Angle]

You have to have faith in practically everything in life. You have to have faith that the chair you are sitting on won't break, you have to have faith that your computer won't crash, you have to have faith that the big bang theory is true. So everybody can relate to it.

Uh, no? It's relatively easy to determine if a chair will break or not. The same is true for my computer, except there is a reasonable possibility of it crashing - that's why I save the things I work on very frequently. Big Bang Theory is much the same - it fits our observations of the universe. As such, I will continue to use it until different observations render it obsolete.

[Teneb]

Think about it honestly, would you have done the same thing?

Not really. Especially due to the fact that he is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent, so he knew, and always knew (otherwise wouldn't be omniscient) they were going to eat from the tree and did nothing to stop them. Not even just appear next to the tree and try to talk them out of it. So... he basically set up the whole thing up straight from the start so that two idiots would fuck up and he'd punish them for it.

[Frumple]

Think about it honestly, would you have done the same thing?

If you're talking about eating the fruit... if I were badly brain damaged too, probably? It's pretty easy to be convinced by random talking snakes when huge portions of your ability to reason are just not there.

Otherwise, hell, when you have an actual god that's actually there with huge flaming letters and whatnot saying "No", that hasn't yet done the whole terrible atrocities thing, then there's actually reason to listen to the hyperpowerful thing that's not yet been a colossal asshat. Back before god started acting like a horrifying and vaguely insane monster, I would have listened. Now is an entirely different story, but back then, with intact faculties, not nomming would have been a fairly easy thing to do.

If you're talking about leaving the decedents of adam and eve to suffer horrifyingly for thousands upon thousands of years... no. I'm not an insane ragebeast that's willing to allow many millions to come to foul ends for the actions of two, if it's within my power to prevent it.

[origamiscienceguy]

You have to have faith in practically everything in life. You have to have faith that the chair you are sitting on won't break, you have to have faith that your computer won't crash, you have to have faith that the big bang theory is true. So everybody can relate to it.

Uh, no? It's relatively easy to determine if a chair will break or not. The same is true for my computer, except there is a reasonable possibility of it crashing - that's why I save the things I work on very frequently. Big Bang Theory is much the same - it fits our observations of the universe. As such, I will continue to use it until different observations render it obsolete.

"Faith is being sure of what you hope and certain of what you do not see."(hebrews 11:1) In other words, believing in something that cannot be proven. You cannot prove that when you sit in your chair this time that it will not break. You can test the strength of the chair as much as you like, but there is no telling if it will actually hold. As for the big bang theory, nobody saw it happen, it cannot be proven. Also, God fits our observation of the universe (the fact that we have one) just as much as the big bang theory does.