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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[Rolan7]

Though I do also still think that human sacrifice to God was a tenet of the religion.

If it was, it was removed from the Bible literal millennia (nearly three) ago. If there was anything about actual human sacrifice according to the common definition in the Leningrad and Aleppo Codices, I'm sure there would have been plenty of uproar. It would also have to have been pretty comprehensively removed.

Ignoring the questionable cases like slaughtering entire towns in God's name, we still have *at least* the story of Jephthah.  This guy offers God a human sacrifice.  No mention of anyone trying to stop him, even his daughter.  Two months later he does it.  No mention of anyone being surprised and upset.

And why would they be, when *human blood* is *specifically* kosher?  The stretch would be to assume that this was the one and only case, making that ruling pointless. 

Plus, I don't see how mass-slaughtering a captured town's helpless women and children, for the glory of God, isn't by definition a human sacrifice.

Edit:  Sorry, maybe I misused the word "tenet"...  I meant to say recurring practice central to their idea of salvation.

[TD1]

All well and good, but my parents gave me sweets for good behaviour and I didn't worship them.

Do you respect your parents?

It God truly is omnibenevolent, why does he need his children to love him so very much?

He doesn't.

Yes I respect my parents.
My parents don't advocate or have ever allowed rape/murder/torture.

And don't you need to love God to go to heaven? You can believe in God but prefer satan.

[Arx]

My parents don't advocate or have ever allowed rape/murder/torture.

So it's graduation of wrongs? Because you believe your parents don't advocate massively bad things, they're worthy of respect?

And don't you need to love God to go to heaven?

That's incredibly ambiguous but I would say that no, you don't.

And why would they be, when *human blood* is *specifically* kosher?  The stretch would be to assume that this was the one and only case, making that ruling pointless. 

Your citation on that point is based off the Gemara, written around 200AD. Biblically, blood is not apparently kosher as far as eating goes:
"Therefore I say to the Israelites, “None of you may eat blood, nor may any foreigner residing among you eat blood." - Leviticus 17:12

Whether it's kosher for sacrifice I find highly doubtful.

[TD1]

My parents don't advocate or have ever allowed rape/murder/torture.

So it's graduation of wrongs? Because you believe your parents don't advocate massively bad things, they're worthy of respect?

No. My parents are worthy of respect on the strength of their attributes and actions. An absence of terrible of deeds is not a reason to respect someone. However, advocating/allowing such things to happen under your nose is enough to lose respect.

[Arx]

My parents don't advocate or have ever allowed rape/murder/torture.

So it's graduation of wrongs? Because you believe your parents don't advocate massively bad things, they're worthy of respect?

No. My parents are worthy of respect on the strength of their attributes and actions. An absence of terrible of deeds is not a reason to respect someone. However, advocating/allowing such things to happen under your nose is enough to lose respect.

Well, the thing is that as I see it you're aying that your parents are worthy of respect because whilst they're mediocre in terms of doing good on a cosmic scale, they're also mediocre in terms of doing evil on a cosmic scale. That's no different to God, yet you have no respect for God.

[Rolan7]

Logically:
Kosher means a substance is allowed for eating or sacrifice
Humans are forbidden to eat blood
Human blood is specifically declared kosher in 200AD

Since humans can't eat the blood, the only reason to declare it kosher was for sacrifice.

And the ruling may be from 200AD, but the practice was probably around previously.  Especially since, without that or a similar practice, it would have been impossible for Jephthah to sacrifice his un-kosher daughter.  Not to mention all the sacrifice of townspeople.

[TD1]

My parents aren't worthy of respect, necessarily, from anyone but me. They begat me, fed me, and have protected me. Let's say this is the equivalent of God. Now, were we to add in that they beat me. They tell me they're more important than me. They give me strict guidelines I must obey or they will beat me more. Were a man to come along and rape me, make me his concubine, my parents would stand by and watch.

Are they worthy of my respect?
My parents are actually reaonably flexible. If anyone were to hurt me, they would move the earth to stop it. They are worthy of my respect. My hypothetical parents don't. They reward and begat me, but they are abhorrent and counter any development I might undergo.

[origamiscienceguy]

John 15:13, "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends."

God has given us the greatest love anyone can ask for.

[TD1]

And the greatest evil, too. My parents would not let me be raped. They love me. God would.

[Angle]

You do know you're wasting your time, right Dwarfy? The believe because they want to. They don't care about evidence or reasoning or the truth, they'll just make up any justification they need. As they say, they have faith, and that's all that matters to them. Hell, if you really want to change there minds, try getting them to want to change them. Because without that, nothing you say will have any effect.

[Rolan7]

That's not productive.
I mean yeah, there are lots of people like that, but we need to give each other credit.

[TD1]

It helps me refine my thoughts, and a lot of topics discussed here are applicable to my exams. It is expedient for me to jump in, and I often enjoy it too.

[Frumple]

Well, the thing is that as I see it you're aying that your parents are worthy of respect because whilst they're mediocre in terms of doing good on a cosmic scale, they're also mediocre in terms of doing evil on a cosmic scale. That's no different to God, yet you have no respect for God.

Hrn. The big problem with that is we kinda' have a minimum for evil after which there is no excuse. We don't really have a minimum for good after which all things are excused. The scale matters, intensely. I have no respect for my parent that abused my other parent, despite that being incredibly mediocre in terms of doing evil, and frankly, the person probably being on the net when it comes to doing good.

Something that has committed (or at least is attributed as such) atrocities on a scale and magnitude equal to any in human history isn't even conceivable of being worthy of respect, regardless of what goods they enact. The scale makes for a significant difference. A person can redeem small evils, make atonement, etc. Great evils have no recourse.

[Arx]

You do know you're wasting your time, right Dwarfy? The believe because they want to. They don't care about evidence or reasoning or the truth, they'll just make up any justification they need. As they say, they have faith, and that's all that matters to them. Hell, if you really want to change there minds, try getting them to want to change them. Because without that, nothing you say will have any effect.

I honestly find this offensive. If I wasn't open to change, do you think I'd have stuck around for over three hundred pages of debate?

Well, the thing is that as I see it you're aying that your parents are worthy of respect because whilst they're mediocre in terms of doing good on a cosmic scale, they're also mediocre in terms of doing evil on a cosmic scale. That's no different to God, yet you have no respect for God.

Hrn. The big problem with that is we kinda' have a minimum for evil after which there is no excuse. We don't really have a minimum for good after which all things are excused. The scale matters, intensely. I have no respect for my parent that abused my other parent, despite that being incredibly mediocre in terms of doing evil, and frankly, the person probably being on the net when it comes to doing good.

Something that has committed (or at least is attributed as such) atrocities on a scale and magnitude equal to any in human history isn't even conceivable of being worthy of respect, regardless of what goods they enact. The scale makes for a significant difference. A person can redeem small evils, make atonement, etc. Great evils have no recourse.

I guess I'm not likely to change your mind on this, or Dwarfy's. I do find it interesting on a philosophical level that you think there are irredeemable crimes, though.

[TD1]

All things are permissible. Some things just shouldn't be, IMO.