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I am religious and believe in free will

70 (27.6%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

113 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249

[Icefire2314]

I don't entirely agree. Heterosexual intercourse is also pleasurable even if done exactly as prescribed by the Church, and it is the same pleasure you get from doing it in the ways the Church is against. If it is the pleasure is the sin, then God created us wherein one sins during sex.

The difference is between making love and fucking, not pleasurable and banal

Then you say that gay couple are incapable of "making love", of feeling true love for a partner and any sexual act between them is an act of base lust?

We know what God has commanded and what is forbidden; it is the straight path and is the only way in which man can be safe and at peace, protecting his honour, his mind and his health, in accordance with the natural disposition with which God has created man. Something innate is not free from being innately sinful, just as someone being born innately with a penchance for violence or addiction is.
Some filthy modernist papal heretics have tried to attack Christianity and its rulings; they have denounced divorce and plural marriage and permitted alcohol. Look at the state of our societies to see the result - the state of misery which our societies have reached.

If we are going to say that being straight is the only way to be at peace then we can take a brief look at most of my childhood and look at the agony being gay has caused me (I am 17, up until last year when I found a way to reconcile my sexuality and faith, I had been in agony over my sexuality for anywhere between 6-9 years of self-torment). I will not go into specifics on how my pysche has been affected by constantly battling with myself over years when my pysche was still forming. Imagine what an infant, whose pysche is also still forming, would turn out like if it was abused.

When we accepted divorce, murder took its place. When we rejected plural marriage, men started to take mistresses instead. When we allowed alcohol, all kinds of shameful and immoral actions became widespread.
Gays and lesbians both go against the natural order which God has created in mankind – and also in animals – whereby the male is inclined towards the female, and vice versa.
Whoever goes against that goes against the natural disposition of mankind.
The spread of homosexuality has caused man diseases which neither the east nor the west can deny exist because of them. Even if the only result of this perversion was AIDS – which attacks the immune system in humans – that would be enough.
It also causes the breakup of the family and leads people to give up their work and study because they are preoccupied with these perversions.

How do gay humans deny the natural order God created in all other animals?
AIDS does not exist as a result of gays. It is unfortunate chance that the first person to spread the disease was gay. If it was a woman to her husband who then went and slept with a prostitute that point wouldn't even exist.
If one is lustful, yes, it can destroy families and to lose works and studies. If one is a lustful straight person or a lustful gay person. If you're lustful and you like to fuck trees for all I care it would do the same. It is the lust not the "perversion".

Both of them – fornication and homosexuality – involve immorality that goes against the wisdom of Allaah’s creation and commandment. For homosexuality involves innumerable evil and harms, and the one to whom it is done would be better off being killed than having this done to him, because after that he will become so evil and so corrupt that there can be no hope of his being reformed, and all good is lost for him, and he will no longer feel any shame before Allaah or before His creation. The semen of the one who did that to him will act as a poison on his body and soul. The scholars differed as to whether the one to whom it is done will ever enter Paradise. There are two opinions which I heard Shaykh al-Islam (may Allaah have mercy on him) narrate.”

Top kek
He's too breeki

So if we are gay we are better off dead, more so than those who would rape children or would abuse their wives?

And what innumerable harms homosexuality entails, I am quite curious.

[origamiscienceguy]

Ok, no need to be hostile. I said I wasn't an expert and clearly you know more about it than I do.

[Frumple]

Ah, sorry if that came across as hostile. Wasn't the intent, just tryin' to correct a misconception.

[Arcvasti]

Research topic of the hour:

Original Sin.

Simply because something is "natural", is not defense against it being sin.  In short, under the doctrine of original sin, humans have a nature that drives or compels them to sin.  This may, for instance, take form as homosexuality, or as being an adulterous rake.

Or just your garden variety liar.

It's all sin, and we are all compelled to do it, each in our own way.

Humans do have a nature driving them towards sin, but animals don't. Why then is homosexuality (including intercourse) observed in animals?

I don't think that any of them have ever tried to have intercourse though. We really can't know what animals are thinking, they might b playing or something. (note: I am in no way an expert)

Homosexuality is totally an animal thing as well. Hell, I've witnessed penguins having gay sex in person. Ducks don't give a damn about the gender, willingness or even state of life of their partner and dolphins are even more indiscriminate. Male lions totally go for the butt-fun when no lionesses are available. And swans[Or maybe its geese? One of the big white feathery birds.], renowned for mating for life, take mates of either gender. And, IIRC, giraffes[Or was it zebras? Some african animal with silly looking legs, anyway] also did devoted homosexual relations[Rather then merely cavorting with no regard to gender or when no suitable mate of the opposite sex was available.]

Note: The below is personal, probably heretical, opinions. I might not know what I'm talking about.

Honestly, the main reason homosexuality is forbidden in the Bible[In my opinion, at least. Baseless xenophobia or dislike the homosexual rituals of nearby pagan religions are both other roots causes I've heard proposed] is the same as why a lot of stuff in Leviticus is forbidden or constrained: Health. Anal sex, IIRC, is more likely to result in STDs because of the higher number of veins in the rectum as compared to the genitals, especially when proper hygiene is not observed. Not that much of a problem today, with modern medical knowledge and hygiene, but it could have been a more serious problem back then. Just like pork products are safe to eat today but carried a deadly disease[IIRC, at least] back in those times. A fair amount of Leviticus is dedicated to hammering home extremely basic health stuff, but justified in divine ways. It also prescribes protocols for dealing with leprosy, odd rashes and lichen, among other things.

[wierd]

Be careful there-- That's falling into the trap of the "God of the self", as well as a few other things that the bible has some really harsh words about.

See Romans 8, 5 through 11.

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

Basically, the stance taken of "adapting to suit the self" goes against this verse quite strongly, and the verse outright says that trying this kind of thing is NOT going to please god. In fact, the person taking this route is UNABLE to please god.

Again, this is a common fallacy I see with people arguing about the dogma of Christianity. They simply dont understand it on its own axioms, and instead make strawmen that they beat about.

The basic foundational principle in the christian dogma, is that the sin-nature of mankind makes humans unhappy when they try to abstain from sin on their own. That is why you need the intercession of the christ, and his gift of the holy spirit, which gives you a substitute nature, permitting you to feel true pleasure while also no longer being driven to commit sins. The purpose of this transformation is to make you into a spiritual being instead of a being driven by the flesh, and thus worthy of being immortal.

If you choose not to go that route, you are demonstrating being a sociopath (since the principles given by god, EG-- living a sin-free existence-- are necessary for a society of immortals to live together harmoniously for eternity, and going against this would mean that you consider yourself more important than the value of other people in such a future immortal society-- eg, sociopathy) and not worthy of being made immortal.  The consequence, therefore, is for god to find you lacking, and make you dead, so you cant harm other people with your selfishness.

[Rolan7]

Yeaaah, ellipses != hostility.

Also I was going to reply to LW but I'm a bit confused about the "paraphrasing a muslim cleric" thing.  Icefire seems to be doing fine.
And Icefire, going to second what Frumple said...  Christian *establishment* is going to tell you you're a monster, don't let it get to you.  Personal spirituality isn't a bad thing, with Jesus or otherwise.  Just keep an open mind and don't follow demagogues, is all I'd ask.

[wierd]

I still think that is an incorrect interpretation, based on what is in scripture.

The better interpretation is, "I want to please god, but I am gay. I will ask Christ to intercede in my life, he will give me the Holy Spirit, and the holy spirit will slowly, over time, make me stop being gay any more, and I will be able to please god."

You can substitute [being gay] with [being a liar], or any other [sin].

This frames why the blasphemy against the holy spirit is unforgivable, because obvious paradox is obvious.

[Icefire2314]

Be careful there-- That's falling into the trap of the "God of the self", as well as a few other things that the bible has some really harsh words about.

See Romans 8, 5 through 11.

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

The basic foundational principle in the christian dogma, is that the sin-nature of mankind makes humans unhappy when they try to abstain from sin on their own. That is why you need the intercession of the Christ, and his gift of the holy spirit, which gives you a substitute nature, permitting you to feel true pleasure while also no longer being driven to commit sins. The purpose of this transformation is to make you into a spiritual being instead of a being driven by the flesh, and thus worthy of being immortal.

Except I have been Baptized, Confirmed, recieved Eucharist, and been Reconciled within the Church. I haven't been Married, Ordained or Anointed. I am a full member of the Church and I am still attracted to men. I have tried to be attracted to women, but I don't feel love for them beyond a friendliness.

I have been saved by Christ through Baptism and the other Sacraments I've received and I have prayed for some 6-10 years for salvation and a taking away of a curse that plagued me. Nobody wants to be gay. I received no resolution.



Further, I may ask a question of, if sexuality were a matter of genetics, and homosexuality were, as Leviticus states, an "abomination", then how would homosexuality be a gene that one is born with? Either God created a gay gene or Satan did. All that God has created is good and the Devil cannot tamper with our bodies in such a physical sense.

If the Devil could tamper with the corporal world in such a physical sense, certainly the embodiment of all evil would have destroyed it.
Since we still exist it is safe to say that if sexuality is a matter of genetics then a homosexual gene exists a matter of creation by God. And all God has created is good.

I still think that is an incorrect interpretation, based on what is in scripture.

The better interpretation is, "I want to please god, but I am gay. I will ask Christ to intercede in my life, he will give me the Holy Spirit, and the holy spirit will slowly, over time, make me stop being gay any more, and I will be able to please god."

You can substitute [being gay] with [being a liar], or any other [sin].

This frames why the blasphemy against the holy spirit is unforgivable, because obvious paradox is obvious.

I was Baptized as an infant and Confirmed around the age of 10 and have gotten more gay, not less.

[wierd]

You are confused.

I am arguing about what the faith's doctrines ACTUALLY SAY.

That is not an affirmation of truthfulness in what those doctrines say.

Again, I am an agnostic. 


(To clarify--- When discussing Dr Suess's Cat in the Hat, the story says the Cat in the Hat "stood out there on the mat."  My pointing out what is written inside that book does not in any way make the Cat in the Hat real, or imply that I believe that any such figure actually did stand out there on any actual mats.)

[Icefire2314]

You are confused.

I am arguing about what the faith's doctrines ACTUALLY SAY.

That is not an affirmation of truthfulness in what those doctrines say.

Again, I am an agnostic.

Right, I misunderstood you. Apologies.
Still, however, my counterargument to that remains valid.

[origamiscienceguy]

well baptism isn't what saves you, it is belief in Jesus as your savior. When did you make that decision?

[Icefire2314]

well baptism isn't what saves you, it is belief in Jesus as your savior. When did you make that decision?

Pope Francis on Atheists and Heaven

EDIT: I meant to post more than just the link. In short Pope Francis says that Atheists can go to Heaven if they are good people but ultimately it is up to God to judge.

[Orange Wizard]

Ugh, this discussion is moving way too quick for me.

The Bible forbids sex outside of marriage. Inside marriage, you're welcome to do whatever you and your spouse enjoy. Such is the purpose of sex. Whether or not marriage includes homosexual couples is up for debate.

Using "it's natural" to defend homosexuality from a Biblical perspective is wrong. Sin is the natural state of the world. It is natural for both humans and animals to lie, murder, and steal. That does not make any of these things okay.
Conversely, it is also natural to love, to show compassion, to be altruistic. These things are good. Natural and unnatural are not indicative of whether something is good or bad.

...

well baptism isn't what saves you, it is belief in Jesus as your savior. When did you make that decision?

Pope Francis on Atheists and Heaven

EDIT: I meant to post more than just the link. In short Pope Francis says that Atheists can go to Heaven if they are good people but ultimately it is up to God to judge.

That's un-Biblical.

[wierd]

And what IS biblical, is christ's condemnation of the doctrine of men. (which is what such rhetoric from the pope is.)

[Loud Whispers]

Also I was going to reply to LW but I'm a bit confused about the "paraphrasing a muslim cleric" thing.  Icefire seems to be doing fine.

What's confusing about being euphoric by my twenty blessings

Then you say that gay couple are incapable of "making love", of feeling true love for a partner and any sexual act between them is an act of base lust?
If we are going to say that being straight is the only way to be at peace then we can take a brief look at most of my childhood and look at the agony being gay has caused me (I am 17, up until last year when I found a way to reconcile my sexuality and faith, I had been in agony over my sexuality for anywhere between 6-9 years of self-torment). I will not go into specifics on how my pysche has been affected by constantly battling with myself over years when my pysche was still forming. Imagine what an infant, whose pysche is also still forming, would turn out like if it was abused.

Nah. And being straight is not sufficient, similar to how fucking and making love are not the same thing
Empty vapid slaggyness is a burden to everyone's psyche

How do gay humans deny the natural order God created in all other animals?

Obvious counterpoint here is that man alone was made in God's image, God sent the last prophet Muhammed to Earth to tell us what is right and wrong on behalf of God and God says no - moreover we have dominion over animals, we are not on the same level as them. God created much savagery and debasedness in animals; we do not follow their example.

AIDS does not exist as a result of gays. It is unfortunate chance that the first person to spread the disease was gay. If it was a woman to her husband who then went and slept with a prostitute that point wouldn't even exist.

Yeah the point would just be the spread of HIV instead

If one is lustful, yes, it can destroy families and to lose works and studies. If one is a lustful straight person or a lustful gay person. If you're lustful and you like to fuck trees for all I care it would do the same. It is the lust not the "perversion".

Lusting after trees is pretty mental m8, bad example

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?

Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)’”

Being lustful and lusting after wrong things is two sins

So if we are gay we are better off dead, more so than those who would rape children or would abuse their wives?

Sheykh wants the former dead and the latter depends

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I – It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever you find doing the deed of the people of Loot, kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”

He's pretty consistent, so yeah

And what innumerable harms homosexuality entails, I am quite curious.

Read some Arab or Indonesian news, fucking brutal