Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 70 (27.6%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 113 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249


Pages: 1 ... 266 267 [268] 269 270 ... 521

Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 582121 times)

Icefire2314

  • Bay Watcher
  • Programmer and Space Enthusiast
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4005 on: December 08, 2015, 09:45:36 pm »

Ugh, this discussion is moving way too quick for me.

The Bible forbids sex outside of marriage. Inside marriage, you're welcome to do whatever you and your spouse enjoy. Such is the purpose of sex. Whether or not marriage includes homosexual couples is up for debate.

Using "it's natural" to defend homosexuality from a Biblical perspective is wrong. Sin is the natural state of the world. It is natural for both humans and animals to lie, murder, and steal. That does not make any of these things okay.
Conversely, it is also natural to love, to show compassion, to be altruistic. These things are good. Natural and unnatural are not indicative of whether something is good or bad.

...

well baptism isn't what saves you, it is belief in Jesus as your savior. When did you make that decision?
Pope Francis on Atheists and Heaven

EDIT: I meant to post more than just the link. In short Pope Francis says that Atheists can go to Heaven if they are good people but ultimately it is up to God to judge.
That's un-Biblical.
Papal Infallibility.

Animals on Murder:Animals do not murder for the same reasons humans do. A carnivore may kill you to eat. A herbivore may kill you if it feels you may want to eat it. Humans may kill you because you disagree with them.
Animals on Theft: I hope I needn't be alarmed if my phone goes missing due to a passing bird. Animals typically steal food from humans. Humans also do that if they get hungry enough. If I am starving and steal a loaf of bread from a baker, am I condemned for my theft or he for his greed?
Animals on Lying: If an animal starts talking to me, let alone lying to me...
Logged
"ERUTH PULL THE DAMN LEVER THE ZOMBIES ARE ABOUT TO GET INSIDE!"
"zzz"
BAY 12 MINI CITY: http://bay-12.myminicity.com/

origamiscienceguy

  • Bay Watcher
  • WELL! OK THEN!... That was fun.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4006 on: December 08, 2015, 09:47:52 pm »

well baptism isn't what saves you, it is belief in Jesus as your savior. When did you make that decision?

Pope Francis on Atheists and Heaven

EDIT: I meant to post more than just the link. In short Pope Francis says that Atheists can go to Heaven if they are good people but ultimately it is up to God to judge.
Romans 6:23:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-9:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. not by works, so that no one can boast.

There are many more verses that would disagree with that.
Logged
"'...It represents the world. They [the dwarves] plan to destroy it.' 'WITH SOAP?!'" -legend of zoro (with some strange interperetation)

wierd

  • Bay Watcher
  • I like to eat small children.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4007 on: December 08, 2015, 09:48:33 pm »

LW, you are forgetting about how powerful exposed female breasts are, and how they can compel God to send earthquakes. ;)

http://www.sodahead.com/living/muslims-blame-earthquakes-on-cleavage-do-you-believe-breasts-cause-tectonic-shifts/blog-303807/

Also, chimpanzees commit actual murder. FYI.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 09:50:09 pm by wierd »
Logged

Telgin

  • Bay Watcher
  • Professional Programmer
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4008 on: December 08, 2015, 09:50:02 pm »

Papal Infallibility.

I've been told that this only applies under very specific circumstances that I don't think the pope invokes very often.  If a Catholic could elaborate on that, that would be pretty interesting actually.
Logged
Through pain, I find wisdom.

origamiscienceguy

  • Bay Watcher
  • WELL! OK THEN!... That was fun.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4009 on: December 08, 2015, 09:51:45 pm »

Yes, I would very much want to know.
Logged
"'...It represents the world. They [the dwarves] plan to destroy it.' 'WITH SOAP?!'" -legend of zoro (with some strange interperetation)

wierd

  • Bay Watcher
  • I like to eat small children.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4010 on: December 08, 2015, 09:53:28 pm »

I dont know a whole lot of the nitty gritty about the catholic flavor of the christian doctrine, but I can pretty much point out that the bible and the catholic doctrine's disparaging of Sola Scriptura are at odds-- especially when the christ outright says not to listen to the doctrines of men.

From a self-consistency of narrative PoV, Catholicism is a bit wobblier than a 2 legged stool in that respect.
Logged

Rolepgeek

  • Bay Watcher
  • They see me rollin' they savin'~
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4011 on: December 08, 2015, 09:53:55 pm »

I think the thing there is, wierd, that there's a disconnect, at least in my mind and definitely in the mind of others, as far as I know, as to whether what the Spirit desires actually matches matches up to what makes people happy. If you're just saying that people are happy when God is with them or whatever, regardless, and as a result they won't want anything else...well, that sounds disturbingly similar to either wireheading or mind control via emotions. Which are both, at least in my values system, undesirable. The second is creepy, the first meaningless.

Basically, I have fundamental disagreements as to whether the principles given by God are in fact the necessary principles for a society of immortals to live harmoniously for eternity. I could talk about how conflict is inherent in human nature but that's easily dismissed as just being sin (I like debate and conflict of the mind, be it in games or speech; I know some people hate losing, but I just enjoy the process). Going against this, then means that I consider my views more correct than that of others, a fact true of literally everyone because otherwise they wouldn't hold those views in the face of anyone having a different one. You could say it means I hold myself above God, and I would disagree; I just hold an all-perfect being to a very rigorous standard, and will be gravely disappointed if he does not meet that standard. I have no frame of reference besides my own to base this standard off, so by definition I cannot hold God to His Own standards. That would defeat the point, anyway.

Christianity ends up looking self-referential if you try to base it on it's own assumptions, able to dismiss arguments in much the same way conspiracy theories do. Any evil humans do is evidence we have a sinful nature; when people who proclaim themselves to be true Christians do so, they were just liars or not very good Christians(I agree with that, by the way, since I still think Jesus was overall a pretty cool dude whether or not he was a lich); Christians who do good are evidence that God's work is at hand; Non-Christians who do good are evidence that He has left his mark on us, and that we are redeemable. Any time my beliefs of what is good differ from the Bible's, that proves that I am wrong, because God is perfect, and He knows best, because He said so. And since He is perfect and good, He would never lie, nor would He be mistaken.

That said, I grew up in a house relatively hostile to Christianity, where I am less liberal than my parents despite my goal in life being literally to achieve immortality, via nanobots. I may accidentally become the Anti-Christ if their hosts reject them leaving strangely spiral or six-shaped marks. *shrug*

Also, two things to note: 1, Religion has been shown to improve the psychoemotional health of people who have such beliefs. I'm guessing because knowing your purpose in life/the meaning in life/not worrying a shitton about death and nothingness like I might sometimes when I'm not distracting myself is more healthy than the alternative.

2, Mother Theresa may have been having an ongoing crisis of faith for the last fifty years of her life, based on her journals and the like.

As for people made uncomfortable by the less hospitable branches of the Christian faith; people are assholes. People will always be assholes. They will always find an outlet to be assholes. I find the sort of atheism that claims all religions are horrible and bad and you should feel bad for being religious and you effectively contributed to genocide and warmongering during the crusades and promote hate and intolerance by your implicit support for all the other branches of your religion including the bad ones, to be horribly dishonest, disrespectful, contemptuous towards people's beliefs and by extension (quite explicit extension, much of the time), the people who hold them, and generally also assholish. Christianity just has a persecution complex that tells them they're good people for being attacked in that way, so they don't get hurt emotionally as much. Key words being as much.

Religion causes wars and fosters hatred, and it creates community, encourages charity, and proposes answers to questions we cannot answer. Some of these can't be answer for the same reason I can't truly be certain a perfectly agile pink unicorn ghost is behind me, but they usually have somewhat more relevance to the human psyche.

Oh yeah, and for homosexuality: I'm pretty sure (I haven't actually read articles on it, but I get the general impression from adjacent studies) that while genetics plays a part in how susceptible you are to 'catching teh gay', it also has to do with environment. And simple errors in the code; I'm fairly sure being transgendered is basically a genetic defect that causes your mind's perception of gender and your physical gender to end up being desynchronized. Doesn't mean they're bad people, and it doesn't necessarily mean the fix is messing with their heads, but still. Environment plays a pretty big part. How I have no idea.


Bah this keeps getting longer: Animals do that too, Icefire! :P It's just that they disagree as to who is the leader of the pack, and then kill. Or whether you're allowed to look at it funny, like hippos do. Plenty of birds steal things because they're pretty (and you never asked the baker, so he's not exactly greedy :p). And plenty of animals deceive, whether in mating calls or just plain sneaking.
Logged
Sincerely, Role P. Geek

Optimism is Painful.
Optimize anyway.

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4012 on: December 08, 2015, 09:56:25 pm »

LW, you are forgetting about how powerful exposed female breasts are, and how they can compel God to send earthquakes. ;)

http://www.sodahead.com/living/muslims-blame-earthquakes-on-cleavage-do-you-believe-breasts-cause-tectonic-shifts/blog-303807/
-Spoilt white girl goes to Muslim country, ignores local guide
-Strips naked on sacred mountain, nothing is sacred everything skanky
-Mountain is offended
-Causes earthquake that kills loads of people
-Must provide 10 buffalo heads as peace offering

Plate tectonics do not fuck around when you fuck around

Icefire2314

  • Bay Watcher
  • Programmer and Space Enthusiast
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4013 on: December 08, 2015, 10:00:52 pm »

Then you say that gay couple are incapable of "making love", of feeling true love for a partner and any sexual act between them is an act of base lust?
If we are going to say that being straight is the only way to be at peace then we can take a brief look at most of my childhood and look at the agony being gay has caused me (I am 17, up until last year when I found a way to reconcile my sexuality and faith, I had been in agony over my sexuality for anywhere between 6-9 years of self-torment). I will not go into specifics on how my pysche has been affected by constantly battling with myself over years when my pysche was still forming. Imagine what an infant, whose pysche is also still forming, would turn out like if it was abused.
Nah. And being straight is not sufficient, similar to how fucking and making love are not the same thing
Empty vapid slaggyness is a burden to everyone's psyche

I would define making love to be an act of an actual love and in sexual context. Fucking would merely be lusted based sex.

Quote
How do gay humans deny the natural order God created in all other animals?
Obvious counterpoint here is that man alone was made in God's image, God sent the last prophet Muhammed to Earth to tell us what is right and wrong on behalf of God and God says no - moreover we have dominion over animals, we are not on the same level as them. God created much savagery and debasedness in animals; we do not follow their example.
If I am going to argue from a Christian perspective I can't debate with Muhammad. However, from a Christian perspective to say God created much debasedness in animals. All God has created is good according to Genesis.
Quote
AIDS does not exist as a result of gays. It is unfortunate chance that the first person to spread the disease was gay. If it was a woman to her husband who then went and slept with a prostitute that point wouldn't even exist.
Yeah the point would just be the spread of HIV instead
I don't understand your rebuttal. AIDS and HIV are effectively the same virus just in different stages of terminality.
Quote
If one is lustful, yes, it can destroy families and to lose works and studies. If one is a lustful straight person or a lustful gay person. If you're lustful and you like to fuck trees for all I care it would do the same. It is the lust not the "perversion".
Lusting after trees is pretty mental m8, bad example
No, my point was that it is not preoccupation with so-called "perversions", it is preoccupation with lust.
Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Being lustful and lusting after wrong things is two sins
So if we are gay we are better off dead, more so than those who would rape children or would abuse their wives?
Sheykh wants the former dead and the latter depends
Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
He's pretty consistent, so yeah

Quote
And what innumerable harms homosexuality entails, I am quite curious.
Read some Arab or Indonesian news, fucking brutal
The first thing that comes to mind from here is the gay men that ISIS pushed off a tower or building or some such. Being gay isn't asking to get pushed off a skyscraper, though I feel you may be referencing something else.


In any case, I need to go do Calc homework, I've been preoccupied with this thread and now need to go do it so I can sleep :( I won't be on this thread at least the rest of this night.
Logged
"ERUTH PULL THE DAMN LEVER THE ZOMBIES ARE ABOUT TO GET INSIDE!"
"zzz"
BAY 12 MINI CITY: http://bay-12.myminicity.com/

wierd

  • Bay Watcher
  • I like to eat small children.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4014 on: December 08, 2015, 10:02:13 pm »

RolePGeek:  The self-referrential nature of the bible's "truths" is kinda the point, no?

I approach this like discussing a work of fiction-- That work of fiction has certain "facts" about it-- or cannonicity.  I am arguing positions from cannonicity, not from a standpoint of non-fiction.

When take in pure isolation, the axioms presented in the bible are the axioms presented in the bible.  The fact that this is a tautology (as in, a literal honest to goodness one!) does not disqualify it.
Logged

Rolepgeek

  • Bay Watcher
  • They see me rollin' they savin'~
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4015 on: December 08, 2015, 10:05:16 pm »

That is true, wierd, but when you are presented with two tautologies, both of which function to explain the world, what persuades you to choose one over the other?

Especially when the sources giving one of those tautologies, contradicts itself in other places?
Logged
Sincerely, Role P. Geek

Optimism is Painful.
Optimize anyway.

Orange Wizard

  • Bay Watcher
  • mou ii yo
    • View Profile
    • S M U G
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4016 on: December 08, 2015, 10:06:47 pm »

Papal Infallibility.
... applies only to the Catholic Church (I'm (sort of) Reformed), and it only applies when the Pope is doing his fancy "I will now state the Word of God" routine, which that was not, and is rejected by everyone who is not Catholic.

...

Animals on Murder:Animals do not murder for the same reasons humans do. A carnivore may kill you to eat. A herbivore may kill you if it feels you may want to eat it. Humans may kill you because you disagree with them.
Animals on Theft: I hope I needn't be alarmed if my phone goes missing due to a passing bird. Animals typically steal food from humans. Humans also do that if they get hungry enough. If I am starving and steal a loaf of bread from a baker, am I condemned for my theft or he for his greed?
Animals on Lying: If an animal starts talking to me, let alone lying to me...
I'm guessing your point here is "animals never do bad things", which is... bizarre. Suffice to say I vehemently disagree, and will be glad to provide all the evidence and theological justification at some point in future.

Still, though... Monkeys? Some make fake alarm calls to scare off their friends while they take food for themselves. Some will pay for pornography. Cats like to play with things they catch instead of killing them to eat. Mice, birds, weta. Because torture for amusement is okay?
Then there's the whole rampant infanticide thing, which is wholly unjustifiable under Christian morals.

E: So many ninjas.
Logged
Please don't shitpost, it lowers the quality of discourse
Hard science is like a sword, and soft science is like fear. You can use both to equally powerful results, but even if your opponent disbelieve your stabs, they will still die.

Rolepgeek

  • Bay Watcher
  • They see me rollin' they savin'~
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4017 on: December 08, 2015, 10:10:09 pm »


Animals on Murder:Animals do not murder for the same reasons humans do. A carnivore may kill you to eat. A herbivore may kill you if it feels you may want to eat it. Humans may kill you because you disagree with them.
Animals on Theft: I hope I needn't be alarmed if my phone goes missing due to a passing bird. Animals typically steal food from humans. Humans also do that if they get hungry enough. If I am starving and steal a loaf of bread from a baker, am I condemned for my theft or he for his greed?
Animals on Lying: If an animal starts talking to me, let alone lying to me...
I'm guessing your point here is "animals never do bad things", which is... bizarre. Suffice to say I vehemently disagree, and will be glad to provide all the evidence and theological justification at some point in future.

Still, though... Monkeys? Some make fake alarm calls to scare off their friends while they take food for themselves. Some will pay for pornography. Cats like to play with things they catch instead of killing them to eat. Mice, birds, weta. Because torture for amusement is okay?
Then there's the whole rampant infanticide thing, which is wholly unjustifiable under Christian morals.

E: So many ninjas.
I believe the idea is that Animals cannot do Evil by definition. Only Humans can, because only Humans have Souls which give them knowledge of Good and Evil, and unknowing action cannot be True Evil, only Incidental Evil.
Logged
Sincerely, Role P. Geek

Optimism is Painful.
Optimize anyway.

wierd

  • Bay Watcher
  • I like to eat small children.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4018 on: December 08, 2015, 10:12:04 pm »

The romans 8 quote deals with this succinctly.

The animal world is of the flesh, and dies.  God's judgement is baked right in, so the system is "good" in god's eyes.

However, humans are meant to be spiritual beings, not flesh ones. 
Logged

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: I am Enlightened by my Euphoria
« Reply #4019 on: December 08, 2015, 10:13:00 pm »

You all tried to have a euphoric thread without MetalSlimeHunt, you bastards.
I don't understand your rebuttal. AIDS and HIV are effectively the same virus just in different stages of terminality.
Medical offense, the Human Immunodeficiency Virus is a virus, Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome is a syndrome caused by that virus.
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.
Pages: 1 ... 266 267 [268] 269 270 ... 521