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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 70 (27.6%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 113 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 249


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 582306 times)

hector13

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6765 on: September 07, 2020, 09:41:26 pm »

Their schtick is god created literally everything! It is hubris of the highest order to suggest the only thing that the world (presumably humans) can see of god (again, created all the things) is something created by humans.

This is one of many reasons why I think organised religion is so disgusting.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

the way your fingertips plant meaningless soliloquies makes me think you are the true evil among us.

Naturegirl1999

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6766 on: September 07, 2020, 09:47:01 pm »

If I were a deity that created the universe, when organisms develop communication, I would then teach them about the laws of how the universe works, and ways of testing to ensure these things are true. If they don’t have a written language, I’ll send it to them via dreams, hell, why not send it by dreams regardless? If everyone knows how the universe works, is able to test the validity of said dreams, how much farther they’d progress in the same amount of time than humans have. I’m now not sure why I wrote this, but I think it fits since a deity is being talked about, of course any deity could do this, I was mentioning what I’d do as an example
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6767 on: September 07, 2020, 09:48:10 pm »

Well, the most significant group I can think of who believe in dream interpretation are the Taliban, so...
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

BoujeeTheAlan

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6768 on: September 07, 2020, 10:35:22 pm »

Many many sects of various religions do in fact believe the divine continues to impart knowledge to us through revelation (not necessarily dreams per se but effectively the same). And I'm not talking about the "reveals himself in nature" angle which is basically positing faith as an entirely rational position resulting from direct observation of the mundane. See any number of gnostic or mystical sects, suffism, the holy spirit. I believe this is also a thing in Dravidic religions but I'm less educated on that.

I'd really like if this thread's discussion didn't default to the Taliban at the expense of a broader really cogent discussion of spirituality. I'm realizing as I write this that I'm sounding cattier than I really want to be, apologies
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6769 on: September 07, 2020, 10:37:19 pm »

There is definitely a big difference in believing God talks to people through supernatural visions, which are not a normal part of life, and believing God talks to people through dreams, which everyone has on a daily basis.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Naturegirl1999

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6770 on: September 07, 2020, 10:47:04 pm »

Many many sects of various religions do in fact believe the divine continues to impart knowledge to us through revelation (not necessarily dreams per se but effectively the same). And I'm not talking about the "reveals himself in nature" angle which is basically positing faith as an entirely rational position resulting from direct observation of the mundane. See any number of gnostic or mystical sects, suffism, the holy spirit. I believe this is also a thing in Dravidic religions but I'm less educated on that.

I'd really like if this thread's discussion didn't default to the Taliban at the expense of a broader really cogent discussion of spirituality. I'm realizing as I write this that I'm sounding cattier than I really want to be, apologies
I don’t think you sound catty, you are pointing out groups other than the Taliban who think the divine impart knowledge through revelations, and that it would be more productive if discussions didn’t default to the Taliban. How is this catty?

There is definitely a big difference in believing God talks to people through supernatural visions, which are not a normal part of life, and believing God talks to people through dreams, which everyone has on a daily basis.
It might be possible a person was dreaming when they thought they were awake, thus they’d think something supernatural happened. There have been times I dreamed of conversations I could have plausibly had, then asked about something to the person I conversed with in a dream about said topic, only to learn that I haven’t talked to said person about that thing I had the conversation about. A similar thing might happen, though of course there would be something supernatural occurring in an otherwise plausible scenario. I guess what I’m trying to say is that it’s possible to think you’re awake when you’re dreaming, and not realize the event that happened was a dream, in the case of a supernatural occurrence, it would be difficult for someone who believes in that sort of thing to test out whether it happened, considering no one else would have experienced what the person experienced, therefore no confirmation on whether it was real or in your mind
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wierd

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6771 on: September 07, 2020, 11:07:55 pm »

MSL-- You are forgetting a lot of the story of Daniel.  Whole premise was about dream interpretation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_2

The Abrahamic god has a long and storied tradition of sending messages as dreams.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6772 on: September 07, 2020, 11:14:18 pm »

MedicalScienceLiaison?

I mean sure, plenty of Christians believe God sends them messages through dreams, but those Christians also will believe God sends them messages through fucking everything. Traffic, toast, people being horrifically killed but a Bible happening to survive the incident, they've got it all. There's just not the sort of commitment you get from thinking God talks to you primarily through dreams.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

wierd

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6773 on: September 07, 2020, 11:32:00 pm »

Fat fingered;  Was caught between a tab alarm going off, the nurse telling me of a stale call light (because the alert system failed to alert me-- A-FUCKING-GAIN), and trying to make that post.

You know who I meant. :)


As for my reference-- Daniel was not the thing you mention. He is one of the leading OT prophets, yo. 
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HmH

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6774 on: September 08, 2020, 01:10:19 am »

I wonder if the AIs we create will develop religions of their own
An AI-heavy civilization might form animistic cults around the fact that everything - the cup, the table, the house, the city - is alive and thinking in its own alien way.

(Kind of like we used to swear at and threaten our dial-up modems to get them to work.
We know they're not actually alive, malevolent, or capable of hearing our words, but the system is so complex and has so many unpredictable variables that we can't help but treat it as a living being whose behavior is a response to our actions.)

A cargo cult might form around extremely large-scale AIs, such as AIs that predict and correct the economical course of a city or a nation.
If bees could think, they'd worship the beekeeper.

All of that is assuming the AIs are introduced in the best possible way and will make no attempts to impinge on people's freedom.
If it goes rotten, the AIs or their handlers will probably form an organized religion to control the populace.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 01:32:08 am by HmH »
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wierd

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6775 on: September 08, 2020, 01:13:02 am »

Hey now.  Threatening rhe machines with the screwdriver often seems to WORK. ;)
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BoujeeTheAlan

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6776 on: September 08, 2020, 03:47:49 am »

There is definitely a big difference in believing God talks to people through supernatural visions, which are not a normal part of life, and believing God talks to people through dreams, which everyone has on a daily basis.

Well I didn't really specify pop cultury supernatural visions just thinking of a whole range of beliefs pertaining to the direct transfer of knowledge/idea/wisdom from divine to adherent. I don't really see why dreams should be seen as meaningfully different in this discussion from drug fuelled vision quests or whirling dervishes being consumed by religious fervour while dancing to music for instance. All could be seen as pretty mundane happenings but are conceived as a direct revelationary conduit to the design.

"Supernatural visions" are either make believe or actual experiences (which may be entirely mundane) which people interpret . I just wanted to draw attention that such subjective interpretations are far from rare and the idea that dreams (among other experiences we might think of as mundane)  have certainly been thought of as anything but mundane across both history and cultures
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6777 on: September 10, 2020, 11:31:55 pm »

So a couple of weeks ago, a very significant study came out. Iran, as you know, has had a theocratic government since the revolution in 1979. The government claims to be some 99% Muslim and 90% Shia as of the last census, which was in 2011 and pretty much universally considered illegitimate.

But now, for the first time in modern history, an organization (The Group for Analyzing and Measuring Attitudes in IRAN, or GAMAAN) has completed a religious survey of Iranians without state approval. How this was done is in the links below, but so far nobody has been able to cast serious doubt on the methodology. Which is rather significant because of what the results of the poll claimed.

That being that about 45% of Iranians say they've left religion entirely. Yes, you did read that correctly. The report was out in Farsi a couple weeks ago and I learned about it through a speaker then, but now the English version is published.

News article
GAMAAN source and English report

People have for decades now questioned the official story on religiosity in Iran, and now that questioning has borne fruit, and rather extreme tasting fruit at that! This is, it is safe to say, much more than I think most people opposed to the Islamic Republic would ever have dreamed of hoping for. And quite a serious bellwether for the Iranian government as well.

Significant survey results:

In total, only 32% of Iranians self-describe as Shia Muslims. The other major groupings are No Religion at 22%, Atheist at 9% (higher than the US!), Zoroastrian at 7.5% (far more than Iran claims), Spiritual at 7%, Agnostic at 6%, and Sunni Muslim at 5%. This is...it's just not the picture that the Iranian government paints. It's not even remotely congruent with their understanding of reality. If accurate, this survey means there is no majority religion in Iran.

While most Iranians still believe in a God (78%), that is the only supernatural belief which is in the majority. Even the second highest result, life after death, is a minority belief at 37%. Not exactly traditional Islam, that. 20% say they do not believe in any of the supernatural concepts surveyed.

As above, vast numbers of Iranians in all demographics report having been religious before but that they are no longer religious today. This figure is between 40-50% across age, education, sex, and location.

60% say they do not pray at all. Only 27% claim to perform the five daily prayers which are required in Islam. I should further note that people are historically very, very apt to lie about how often they pray or attend services on self-reporting surveys like this one (surveys in the US report about double the church attendance compared to objective attendance studies) and as such the number could be even higher.

68% of Iranians say that the government should not legislate based on religious precepts even if the religious are the majority in government. Not a good look for the Islamic Republic. 70% say that religious organizations should be responsible for themselves and not receive state funding.

A mere 4% of Iranians say that only Muslims should be allowed to proselytize. Most of the rest are evenly divided between saying promotion of religion should always be illegal (42%) or that it always should be legal regardless of religion (40%). The remainder expressed no opinion.

A basic majority said that they wanted children to be educated on diverse religions in school, as well as saying that they did not want children to be educated on religious teachings and duties in school. This seems to indicate a desire for the end of the current Islamic studies policy in Iran in favor of neutral teaching of religion.

As people have noted for a long time now, the hijab law in Iran is extremely controversial. But even here, this survey's results are mind-blowing: 72% say they disagree with the hijab law and only 15% explicitly agree with it. Beyond that, 58% disagree with even voluntary hijab wearing while 23% agree with it. Of those who say they disagree with voluntarily wearing hijab, 98% disagree with the hijab law. So yeah, that's...that's a lot.

Finally, most people still do not drink alcohol. This is probably more of a supply issue than an ideology issue, looking at the rest of this.


So yeah. That all happened. I had seen signs before that Islam was starting to surfer the same decline as Christianity in countries with good internet access, but holy fuck. Looks like theocracy is a good way to just eviscerate your religious authority. So. Good luck to the Iranian people in the coming years. I think they're going to need it.

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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

HmH

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6778 on: September 11, 2020, 10:43:15 am »

Quote
Looks like theocracy is a good way to just eviscerate your religious authority.
Keep in mind that Iranians weren't exactly religious fanatics before the Islamic Revolution, either.
Sure, a certain portion of the religious populace had gotten more fanatical in the 1970s. But even so, the revolution started out as predominantly political conflict: the movement of pretty much everyone against the Shah, not the conflict of Muslims against the secular government.
Then it got hijacked by extremists, as revolutions sometimes do; and as usual, extremists running the country turned out to be better at oppressing people than the previous tyrant had been.

That said, merging a religion with the government does seem like an excellent way to make the religion look bad.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 11:25:34 am by HmH »
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dragdeler

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6779 on: September 11, 2020, 08:51:57 pm »

iran was never our ennemy (the other way round though...), cool poll


oopsie I used the first plural form as if... haha... yeah let's not fool ourselves - if still in doubt ask patrice lumumba
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