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Author Topic: Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)  (Read 9092 times)

Larix

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Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)
« on: March 06, 2015, 06:23:30 pm »

The dwarfs of Degelkol, Galleywheels, don't think much of military prowess. Consequently, they have no standing military and in fact no citizens with significant military skill.

That doesn't mean they are pacifists. Their wealth has attracted many goblins and other hostile creatures. To keep themselves safe, the people of Galleywheels have built many traps. However, the items found in the "traps" folder are generally only the backup plan, goblins are mashed by various other contraptions.

N.B. Both Galleywheels and Blamelesscloister are .34.11 forts. I've tested the concepts in .40.24 and they still work, although the exact efficiency may have changed in some cases. Hard to say with un-co-operative goblins who rarely bother to show up.

Exhibit one: automated Atomsmasher.

        

Two 3x10 bridges that must be travelled lengthwise. The two doors in the middle enclose one tile of water (pond, filled from above). Whenever a door is opened, water spreads off the tile, the pressure plate in it (responds to 0-5 water) fires and indirectly triggers a 200-step repeater that controls both bridges. Bridges change state roughly every 105 steps. Creatures on the bridges while they raise are thrown around (unless they're on the wall tile, where they get crushed right away), stunning them, often breaking bones and effectively preventing them from moving forward. Creatures in the corridor while the bridges come down are crushed, destroyed with no remains. Very convenient, since it cuts out all the goblinite hauling. Since it's triggered by an opening door, trapavoiders are caught, too. On the downside, it also crushes merchants, diplomats and citizens when allowed.

Between uses, the water cell must be refilled via pond order. That's visible to the right - it's the level above. The traps are the backup in case some flyer gets through the pond opening. The connection between the smasher and the fort is through a raisable control bridge. For added safety, a citizen-triggered pressure plate frequently hinders dwarfs from commiting suicide by bridge - it opens a hatch cover in their path. If the control bridge is up, invaders will not path into the crusher.

To prevent mis-crushes, the repeater is triggered indirectly:



The hatch to the left responds to the trigger, but the cart can only enter the proper activation loop when the hatch in the southeast (orthoclase) is also open. That hatch is controlled by a dedicated "arm bridge" lever.

This was our first defensive machine, and it's been the go-to device when dealing with goblin/troll siege forces. No hauling, little mess, very efficient. It can't be used when an invasion force includes large animals and is useless against semi- and megabeasts (bridges break when trying to lift or crush something too big).

For the big stuff, our recourse was
Exhibit two: spike corridor. Once again, pretty simple:



Doesn't look like much, but these fifteen spike assemblies took out numerous large war beasts, a few titans, a roc and a dragon and two demons. It's run off a minecart repeater tuned to optimum period of 82 steps per full spike cycle. It takes four pressure plates to achieve this, which isn't optimal.
To the north and below, the corridor continues through several weapon traps, which in fact took care of a few particularly nimble victims.

The spike corridor gets triggered by lever-pull and can be selectively shut to the outside world or the fort.

Since the entrance to the spike corridor is rather exposed, we built an extra door just for diplomats (originally also for migrants):



A spider-web of underground tunnels, leading to a bridge-lock, guarded by a few weapon traps and a war dog. Since the entire surface is set to "restricted" pathing, it safely channelled migrants through the underground passages when we still got migrants. Dog and traps take care of ambushes and thieves that try to sneak in with the diplomat.

The caverns under Galleywheels were home to several massive beasts. While it's entirely possible to lure them with an artefact piece of furniture and poke them with spikes, we decided to try out some minecart applications:
with impulse ramps and/or the checkpoint effect, carts can be set to perpetual motion. A sufficiently heavy cart can deliver quite a punch, and with ramps, it can keep giving additional punches after the first one. The first design was a simple accelerator coil, tried out against goblins:

Exhibit 3a - goblin exploder



Cart circulates counter-clockwise in the six-ramp cycle, reaching maximum ramp speed. When the door to the south is opened, the cart exits, at bone-breaking speed. Anything not substantially heavier than the (metal) cart will be blown apart, but it seems to only hit one opponent at once. The cart is re-cycled by an impulse ramp on the collision spot, sent around the southwestern loop over a hole in the floor (so even if a crowd wants to enter, everyone tries the door instead of going around).

Not fully satisfactory, since with large opposing forces, the cart can get stopped on a flat tile. I think this test device failed half-way through an ambush.

Thus, improvement:
Exhibit 3, high-speed minecart grinder



A twelve-ramp loop. To get the cart around corners without losing ramp acceleration, corners go up a level. On the level above, there's another impulse ramp sending the cart back down on the other side. No matter where the cart collides with a target, it cannot be fully stopped. I built two grinders in a row, in case something got through the first one, and a lockable door and spike array, in case something got through the second. Nothing got through the first so far. Actually, we seem to have run out of forgotten beasts. Yes, that design has killed three forgotten beasts (not at the same time).

The design works against goblins, too:



And against trolls ;)

To make the whole thing start- and stoppable at will, carts are first deposited on mechanically operated hatches. However, those hatches attract trolls (and forgotten beasts). They have to stand inside the grinder to destroy the hatches, so that's actually still useful, but once the hatch is gone, there'd be no more way to stop the cart. So we _also_ installed one 1x1 retractable bridge in a corner of each grinder cell.

Large crowds can clog the grinders. It seems that a cart can only push one creature per tile, and large/heavy creatures, especially when there are several in one tile (like trolls while taking a hatch apart), can block a cart's movement into their tile.

So, not perfect, but adequate. Can deal with normal sieges.

It's also possible to build grinders with much less floor space - two ramps per cart are enough:

Exhibit 3b - chain of tiny grinders

     

The trolls got to grinder Nr. four out of nine. Once again, trolls clump together to take down hatches, blocking the cart until they spread out again. The grinder chain took out 26 units of a siege, which broke the morale of the rest.

Each grinder cell consists of two straight ramps, nothing more. Since they touch each other, they "lean" in opposite directions. A cart will keep bouncing between these ramps at substantial speed forever, or until offered an exit (above). That's what that mess of doors and hatches is for - it allows extracting the carts from their cells and in fact deposits them back onto their hatches, ready for operation at the flick of a lever. The nice thing about this design is that every tile of path goes straight through minecart-occupied ramps, there's no way to sidestep them.

There's another way of crushing things with minecarts: by dropping from above. Due to a rather weird bug, minecarts deliver collision damage through solid floors to creatures directly below. Out of curiosity, we tried this out against forgotten beasts, as well:

Exhibit four: minecart percussion corridor



A row of rollers pushing west, a tile of floor and a pit. Looks quite unassuming. Carts touch the rollers and get pushed west. Carts coming from floor do not enter downward ramps at all, they always jump. Carts jump past the pit, smack into the wall and fall down.



Into a simple double-ramp pit. After hitting the floor, the carts climb out east, towards the roller that throws them back in.

And on the level below that, through unbroken floor:



Those were six forgotten beasts, of various materials up to gemstone. Ten copper minecarts regularly punching from above >> forgotten beaasts.

I've tried the design against HFS, and it works quite well. Very beefy types can take quite a lot of punishment, but if you manage to keep them under the carts for long enough, they should succumb eventually. Haven't tried it against goblins, feels like overkill. Percussive minecarts can be had without power, too.

Something i haven't built in Galleywheels, but which also works remarkably well:

Exhibit 5: powered minecart grinder



The six roller pairs in the centre-south are the grinder. Each roller pair tosses a heavy, massively loaded cart back and forth when powered. Nothing gets through. This simple setup has taken out 444 units (mostly hostile) so far. It's backed up with traps and coupled with bridges to offer an alternative path and/or block path through a busy grinder - to keep traders alive. It's built in a glacier with practically no planning, thus the spaghetti pathing.


The main downside of automated defences is that they're largely static. The best magmacannon does nothing for you when the goblins aren't in the target zone. Waiting for the enemy to enter your prepared crusher/spike corridor/trap field can become quite boring. Fortunately, most creatures with legal path _will_ move at some point. And if they just won't, you can always flood the area with magma.


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Terff

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Re: Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2015, 10:23:06 pm »

This is glorious, as a person who hates setting up military this sounds delicious
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Quote from: Lectorog on August 06, 2013, 03:57:45 pm

A goblin siege!?  Good we haven't had one in awhile, we are running out of new clothes

YAHG

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Re: Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2015, 10:24:20 pm »

My favorite is the percussive minecarts.  :o

Cattani

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Re: Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2015, 10:33:08 pm »

This is inspirational. Feeling like returning to the older version and try learning minecarts because of this. Thanks for the motivation!

I feel like I'm enjoying some 60% of game content at most because of minecart ignorance. It's hard being lazy.
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Max™

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Re: Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2015, 11:25:03 pm »

Worth noting that a lot of formerly safe designs are rendered null by climbing and jumping.

What's interesting to me is that I see enemies jump a couple of tiles across the edges of murky pools when I'm kiting them around one to get some space, periodically I'll catch a flash of blue background on something which nothing else is close enough to hit, ergo they jumped.

Similarly I had my full-plate parkour dorfs including one disproving the old "untraversable ramps are safe" idea that I have since tested in adventure mode. Gotta make something that has to climb back UP through the untraversable ramps to keep out climbers while allowing wagons to pass freely.
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Larix

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Re: Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2015, 09:00:55 am »

These designs are DF2014 compatible - they all have very strictly controlled entrances that can't be bypassed with climbing or jumping. The only other entrance to the fort is the underground caravan entrance which touches the edge between two trees. This makes it completely inaccessible (to non-flyers) from the rest of the map for DF2012, but the raising bridge across the caravan path and an "airlock" of two door-blockable passages with a bunch of cage traps between them gave sufficient security against the freak goblin squad that spawned on the caravan path. It should still be possible to construct a hermetic seal for the caravan path with bridges.

A fully no-soldiers fort really depends on very strict pathing control, which can be easily achieved by burrowing into the ground and having few if any outside installations. That's more of a limitation in DF2014, where wood and fruit from aboveground trees are a very attractive ressource.

By the way:
I'd very much like it if we could have an invention exchange.

If you (anybody) have made clever, simple, ingenious or silly automated defences in a recent fort, why not show off your work? Anything that's not just a trap field or training room ;)
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 09:02:45 am by Larix »
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Naryar

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Re: Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2015, 09:37:00 am »

I have tried magma guns, but none of them worked due to minecart slowdown in magma. I believe magmafalls are the solution.

I do believe I should be able to do some non-standard magma traps as well.

The minecart designs seem good. Not fond of atomsmashers as defensive traps though. They trivialize the game.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 09:41:33 am by Naryar »
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Spehss _

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Re: Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2015, 11:26:36 am »

The minecart percussion corridor sounds amazing. I'll have to try that sometime.

I have a concept idea for a trap corridor where a line of automatic water cannons launch water blobs into a corridor 1 tile wide, with grates as the floor to allow the water to flow back into the cannon to be reused for ammo. The goal is to have goblins have to path through the corridor and getting smashed into the wall opposite the water cannons and get blown apart. Basically have goblins run perpendicular and only 1 tile away from the mouths of however many water cannons it takes to line a corridor, so they get shot at pointblank range with a super-heavy ball of water traveling at max velocity and get knocked into the wall and blown apart by the force.

I have yet to set anything up though, because I have neither the experience with building such minecart contraptions nor do I have the time or dedication to see the project through to the end.
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milo christiansen

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Re: Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2015, 03:19:09 pm »

I build something called a "seesaw of Armok" when I want a big trap. It is something like your "minecart percussion corridor", except instead of using power to control the cart it drops it from above and uses a bridge to keep it from escaping the pit until I want to shut it off.

The design is more complicated because I use the same lever to contol both the bridge and the hatch cover.

The system works like this:

The lever is flipped, raising the bridge (one z up) and opening the hatch cover (two z up), this drops the cart two z onto one of the ramps.
With the bridge blocking the floor above the ramps the cart oscillates rapidly (eg everything dies).
When the lever is flipped again the cart leaves the pit, crosses the bridge, crosses a pressure plate crosses an impulse ramp and the goes up a normal ramp (this ramp is covered by a second hatch cover that is linked to the pressure plate). Once it is up on the next level it continues down a relatively long track until it hits a ramp with no upper exit, neatly turning the cart. The cart then goes back, crosses the hatch cover and ends up parked on the hatch cover it started on.

The activation delays of the various parts means the cart cycles through the system twice before stopping, as the upper hatch cover takes that long to close.

Sorry no picture, I don't have a save handy with one built, but if you download Rubble (see sig) the "addons/User/Macros/Milo's Entry" directory has image blueprints (including an annotated .xcf with build instructions) of a fortress entry that has one.

I got the idea (and name) from a Masterwork community fort, I forget who was running it, but it was pretty cool.
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Re: Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2015, 09:29:55 pm »

I uh... never got to fully use my back-up defense.

Largest siege was about 5 years in and I think it was like 80 gobs and trolls total, my military at the time had been training for a while, the civvies were all in civilian leather+crossbow or hammer uniforms, and despite having the military stay up on the entrance platform and letting the gobs come to them, Mr. McLegendary and his squad still ended up battling their way down the stairs, past the elevated wagon access (in case of magma flooding) and up next to the open-air cisterns for the dual pump-stack.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Worth noting that the troll way to the left by itself didn't come from that direction (the walls direct the magma northward into the forests that way) as invasions tended to come from the southwest, he was actually part of the group making up the trail of bodies down there but one dorf grabbed him by his ear and threw him somehow, earning the name and job Urist McTyson, Trollbiter from me.

I came back with McLegendary and his wife later and activated the pumpstacks while dropping the pistons because why not... there's no place like home:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There are a couple of bait targets for trolls that I was gonna test out early on, having a weapon rack and armor stand behind fortifications to see if building destroyers would try to get to them. Turned out the nearby gobs were pretty far away after all.

The two structures to the left and right in the flooded screenshot are the exits for the pumpstacks which link to a set of axles hooked to a 4 wheel reactor. Since the reactor wouldn't shut off even if I closed the hatch over the feed tile I linked a gear from the two axles to a set of rooms full of gears and pumps that suck down enough power to kill it when hooked up.

The pumps themselves draw from a cistern around the forge level which was filled by the volcano, with back-up reservoirs above-ground surrounded by fortifications because it looks cool and I got bored waiting for the gobs to arrive, which is the main problem with not using a military at all... a clean trap corridor is just depressing, a clean military can still be hurled at hell or something.
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Niddhoger

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Re: Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2015, 09:57:36 pm »

These would be more impressive if they weren't largely a long list of exploits.  You can still make pit traps/force mobs to fall 20+ z levels or even use tons of semi-trained animals as fodder (20+ cave crcos and some GCS do wonders for goblin infestations).  However, impulse ramps and atom-smashing bridges are too exploity for me, if you could set up the minecarts without the impulse ramps that would be great. 

The spike traps are fine though, so long as you don't use pathing abuse (opening/closing doors to force gobbos back and forth over them).
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RocheLimit

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Re: Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2015, 01:00:52 am »

While I mainly use a military for the surface attacks, I go with an automatic cage trap system for the caverns.

My comment as a complete description of it, but to summarize it there are two main lines of capture; the initial basic cage hall & the building destroyer halls.  A silk-cage trap hall is added later when a GCS or a web FB is caught.

Here is my current trap system, with 8 captive FB's. 
Z=+1 Water cells above each FB holding cell of the trap, and levers for controlled refilling/draining.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Z=0 Cage hall for cageable cave beasties, building destroyer cells for FB's, and a web trap for cleanup.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Z=-1
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's not for every fort, but it does it's job very well.

And here is a gif from a prior fort of the system in action.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That said, I have been meaning to experiment more with powered minecart halls.  I previously tried a few times in DF2012 to get a minecart water shotgun to work (never succeeded) and I did get an impulse ramp grinder working a few times.  I found cleanup on those systems to be a bear though.  Last one I got to work in DF2012 worked great for the first few sieges, then I could not for the life of me find the proverbial sock: I watched helplessly as my entire fort walked into the grinder. 

I think I need to work more with magma.  I hear it does wonders.

Larix

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Re: Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2015, 07:32:33 am »

Oh, i like those! The water-plate triggered by a destroyed or opened building is one of my favourite little tricks, a good way to bypass the TRAPAVOIDER tag.


if you could set up the minecarts without the impulse ramps that would be great. 

See motorised grinder near the end. That one uses no ramps at all, and it's the device with the highest kill count.

Anyway, shotguns and high-speed grinders can be set up without _impulse_ ramps, but
1. it'd lose so much cadence it'd be hardly worth the bother
2. it'd still use ramps, and _all_ ramps are exploity, not just impulse ones. Whenever you have ramps of any kind in a minecart circuit, you're getting checkpoint effects (quasi-teleportation when leaving ramps) or fake ramps (cross levels without ramp acceleration/deceleration).

I'm a dwarf of low morals when it comes to minecart construction, i use all options i have.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 07:50:03 am by Larix »
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taptap

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Re: Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2015, 05:18:02 pm »

For me the percussion trap is the coolest system and the one requiring least maintenance. Most challenges are likely too easy for Larix, but anyway: Make a magma mist trap, that applies only the magma mist to the target.

I use submerged pressure plates (someone told me, my first step into fluid logic) as well. As you need the other floor anyway, you could also put a hanging submerged pressure plate in the floor above, this has little benefit as a trigger (saves a door :)), though it might theoretically keep it save from fire breath. The door holding fluid above theme could probably be used to make special utility doors. Say a door that allows fast passage (as long as magma hangs in the air before falling, but messing it up for building destroyers) or in a single use minecart evacuation track (ridden minecart in a track with some water opens door and passes fast before magma falls that blocks the path with obsidian).
« Last Edit: March 08, 2015, 05:30:28 pm by taptap »
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Detros

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Re: Soldiers are overrated (non-military defences presentation)
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2015, 08:25:14 am »

Say a door that allows fast passage (as long as magma hangs in the air before falling, but messing it up for building destroyers) or in a single use minecart evacuation track (ridden minecart in a track with some water opens door and passes fast before magma falls that blocks the path with obsidian).
Nice! We need a bunch of starship-like evacuation pods.
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