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[BlackFlyme]

Depends on the setting. In Pathfinder, creating undead is literally ripping pieces of souls out of the Boneyard, preventing them from moving on to their final resting place until the corpse they are being forced to inhabit is destroyed.

[Criptfeind]

I'll agree with Animate Dead being really not that bad (assuming you're using a cosmetology where negative energy and/or undead are not pure evil by default). But with Create Undead you're making a permanent Sentient slave that is cursed (unless it's a mummy) with a eternal hunger for the flesh of the living (Even if the monster doesn't want to be evil and kill people, that just makes it worse when it inevitably does). No matter how your setting handles undead that's like, minimum of two types of undeniable evil. Not to mentioned summoned creatures are totally under your control and can't possibly do something you don't tell them to do, unlike the created undead.

Edit: I will say that if you're in a universe where undead are not automatically evil, and you have permission (from the body owner and, if it's a different person, whoever actually ends up animating the mummy, which might be just a totally new person in which case I think it's okay not to ask first.) creating mummies is pretty goochie with me.

[mainiac]

It depends on the universe.  It's a pet peeve of mine that people sometimes act like the same morality belongs in a dnd universe as ours.  Maybe but maybe not.  The cosmic forces in DnD take the form of physics manifestations.  Good and evil generally aren't concepts hashed out by ancient philosophers, and then debated back and forth ever since.  They're forces like gravity or electromagnetism.  A DM can have a different rule of course but to me that seems the very natural conclusion of a world where good and evil manifest themselves in physical form on a constant basis.

[highmax28]

I'm talking more about saving them because they like or enjoy their company for example goodplayer has been evilplayers friend for years in game and the evil character genuinly likes good character but before now they have never in their life done something for another at the cost of their own convience.

It takes a lot more than a single action to become good, in my reckoning. If evil character consistently starts to act for the benefit of others as his motive, then his alignment might shift, but even evil people have friends.

So here's a question, because this is a topic brought up in my current pathfinder game:

A character has been abused and used by a lot of people, from their mother to an entire church, to the point they're sick of being used and hates everyone because of it. The player wants the character to grow to be able to see that not everyone wants to use them, and slowly shift them away from being a selfish asshole.

The player said they kind of want to shift them from NE to NG, but I don't know if the above would make them LE going to CG or something else. The character is definitely not lawful in the sense that we just discussed where they follow the laws of the world, but their own kind of "I do whatever benefits me, I don't care if I leave people in the dust because they'll hurt me" ideals. They're very secretive, but they slowly opened up to the party huntress.

What would cause an alignment shift in this case? I'm allowing it to happen, but I'm not sure what to expect. I'm also unsure if that would be considered evil at all. I'd like some insight on this

I... would actually argue that hanging around with your group would not be conductive to a good alignment of any sort, since you're working and condoning the actions of evil people (the rapist Druid, etc). From what I've read, you seem the stereotypical murderhobos. I'm not criticising that you are, merely stating what you seem to be, and what your party does not seem to be is "good".

Different group. The honorable but bloody barbarian, the questionable fighter, the rape druid, the shit talker ranger and the 15 year old rogue are one party, and the one who wants to grow into another alignment is one that I'm running myself.

And I haven't even talked about my barbarian much either... I think he meets the chaotic neutral terms quite well. A lot of what he does is to fuck with a certain faction who turned him from a pure blooded werewolf into a shifter when he got cured of his lycanthropy against his will (DM and I talked and he said its fine that this happens plot-wise) and most of his family butchered. He saw he failed as an alpha because he couldn't find a way to turn himself and his people back to werewolves so he left, knowing he's a failure. He then spent years hunting these people, and then he came across the party whos about to go screw with them, and my guy is literally tagging along because it fucks with the faction he hates.

Some of his deeds include:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

- Kicking down doors, even if the door isn't locked or is barred shut
- Taking a puppy from a dungeon and taming it because he can
- Feeding said puppy bones from former skeleton enemies
- Ripping off zombie heads to kill them
- Charging into combat ignoring plans
- Stopping the party cleric from using their special ability of healing party members as if they received a long rest beacuse it hurts her
- Fighting a dungeon boss and taunting him because he's a coward for escaping
- Blowing things up to kill an enemy faster
- Consistently biting enemies over and over and mauling them (shifter ability)
- Eating his enemies' faces
- Punching the druid for making stupid decisions and/or comments
- Throwing said druid after he flirted with the barbarian at a person who belongs to his enemy's faction who's starting a bar fight
- Taking trophies from defeated major enemies (teeth, claws, fingers, skulls, weapons, etc.)
- Beating a paladin within inches of his life in a bar fight after giving him some nasty wounds to the face (biting him of course)
- Honoring fallen allies
- Using 15lbs of dynamite to blow up an enemy, despite two allies standing very close
- Saving one of those two allies (the druid) from being blown up
- Failing to do his tank duties because of the dynamite being lit, leaving the rogue behind to be insta-killed by the boss (rogue got revived later)
- Running over an enemy with a horse twice and then sparing his buddy after biting the run over guy to death
- Sparing a guy and then sending him out into the cold during a civil war to tell the leader of an army that his party is coming
- Pulling a guy out of a broken window and mauling his face with his teeth, causing his enemies to panic
- Throwing a dwarf into another dwarf 60ft after smacking him with a 30ft high 1ft thick door while his arm was planted into the ground by a shield that the dwarf planted himself
- Picking up another dwarf who planted his shield into the ground and using him as a bludgeoning weapon to beat the enemy leader, which caused the dwarf with the shield to lose his arm
- Kicking a dwarf woman buried up to her neck over and over again until she's unconcious for the purpose of moving her elsewhere (we lacked chains and she's stronger than the barbarian)
- Sending a formerly 1 armed dwarf into the cold to tell people that this guy ripped off his arm and his druid ally likes turning into a bear and crushing people by falling on them

We're a bit of a psychotic group... I'm guessing some of you are gonna say my barbarian is CE

[MetalSlimeHunt]

See, this is why I like Ravenloft. Questions such as "why is necromancy evil" become so much simpler in a realm who's cosmology is formed entirely of hidden but definitely malevolent powers. Necromancy is evil because it gets their tender attentions, regardless of other concerns.

[highmax28]

See, this is why I like Ravenloft. Questions such as "why is necromancy evil" become so much simpler in a realm who's cosmology is formed entirely of hidden but definitely malevolent powers. Necromancy is evil because it gets their tender attentions, regardless of other concerns.

I saw in a webcomic that someone decided to be a LG necromancer, which was the funniest thing I ever saw. It usually ended up with him reviving people's pets and other things, but it ended up causing things like Mr. Fluffles the rabbit eating little Emily's face

[Neonivek]

Necromancy isn't so much evil in the dungeons and dragons universe

So much that the methods involved in it usually either slowly corrupt the user or eventually present them with a situation where their whole morality system is at jeopardy.

For example becoming a Lich? The reason it turns you evil is because Orcus specifically designed it that way. It is ultimately a trap.

A Lich who avoids this fate is known as a Archlich... and Orcus seriously prevents people from even achieving it... though most die of old age before then.

And magic isn't really something that avoids this fate either. Most of the most powerful mages and spell casters are evil... in fact I would go as far as to say the majority of them are.

Basically Evil does in 1 year what good does in 20 when it comes to magic.

[Jimmy]

It's also the Catch 22 of the game system. You're playing a game that's designed around hurting and killing things. That's the majority of the design strategy for building a viable character. Unless you're playing a Face character made to max out your social skills, it's generally assumed you're running around killing things and taking their stuff.

Now, in the case of evil outsiders, undead or abberations, killing them is an unequivocally good act. Killing animals or magical beasts? If they're attacking you and you kill in self defense, yeah, not a big deal. Hunting them for sport might be considered an evil act however, since you're not showing respect for life. It gets iffy with vermin, constructs, oozes or plants, since they are typically mindless. Killing evil humanoids, monstrous humanoids, fey or dragons? You'd probably best have a good reason other than 'I wanted their stuff.'

[Shadowlord]

"They're always chaotic evil. It says so right in the monster manual."

[BlackFlyme]

Some Paladin Oaths come to mind. Flavour text for the Oath against Undeath says that such Paladins acknowledge that Good undead may exist, but must destroy them anyways.

Or the Oath against the Wyrm, which must kill any dragon who could potentially be dangerous. As well as anything with even the slightest relation to dragons, such as Kobolds, or a Sorcerer with the Draconic bloodline, because they are "tainted with the corruption of dragons".

[AbstractTraitorHero]

I wanna see an all undead campaign with undead of mulitiple alignments it would be hilarious to see an undead paladin.

[Jimmy]

Fun fact: In 3.5e, a paladin's Detect Evil spell-like ability will detect all undead creatures as evil, even if their actual alignment is neutral or good. Pathfinder corrected this loophole in the spell.

[Rolan7]

Fun fact: In 3.5e, a paladin's Detect Evil spell-like ability will detect all undead creatures as evil, even if their actual alignment is neutral or good. Pathfinder corrected this loophole in the spell.

Some Paladin Oaths come to mind. Flavour text for the Oath against Undeath says that such Paladins acknowledge that Good undead may exist, but must destroy them anyways.

Or the Oath against the Wyrm, which must kill any dragon who could potentially be dangerous. As well as anything with even the slightest relation to dragons, such as Kobolds, or a Sorcerer with the Draconic bloodline, because they are "tainted with the corruption of dragons".

Necromancy isn't so much evil in the dungeons and dragons universe

what the hell edition are you playing, I didn't get any of this from 3.5e

So much that the methods involved in it usually either slowly corrupt the user or eventually present them with a situation where their whole morality system is at jeopardy.

For example becoming a Lich? The reason it turns you evil is because Orcus specifically designed it that way. It is ultimately a trap.

Sure, except I don't think anyone in my group knew Orcus was involved.  Orcus?  ORCUS?  All I remember about him is that he's a demon who hates undead, but has some dominion over them.

Though in our setting, liches were frankly common (there was a continent-spanning empire which had an academy and a mine for "vampiric diamonds" as reagents.

It was still a despicably evil act, though.  It likely involved the sacrifice of a non-evil soul, though we never found out for sure.  They had plenty of slaves.

[highmax28]

I'm liking the discussion, but sadly I don't have much to throw in.

I am gonna say, my character I'm using for my pathfinder game after Haldor (the kineticist) finishes his campaign, is a lawful neutral wizard. He's part of a law enforcement division that deals with arcane problems, and considering he's an arcane caster as well (in this world, arcane magic is a lost art, but divine magic is VERY abundant, and is seen as the only source of magic anymore) he kind of scares people with his magic. He's very knowledgeable and since he's law enforcement, he has some social skills to aid him in solving crimes, though most of his power lies in his knowledge (every knowledge skill is 18-21). He doesn't want to kill people, he just sends them to justice. He doesn't care if the person is doing crime for good intent or if the crime was committed without the person knowing it was against the law, he takes them to justice. He will only kill if his opponent is deemed too dangerous to contain or there is no possible way to contain/detain them. He also employs the help of outsiders (mostly celestials, though he tends to bring Coatls a lot) to bring justice and to aid him when things start to seem rough. He doesn't like people and tries to avoid friendships and relationships, though the two tend to force their way into his life one way or another. It also doesn't help him that he never feels good enough so he always does his best and takes it hard when he fails

[BlackFlyme]

what the hell edition are you playing, I didn't get any of this from 3.5e

I only really play Pathfinder, since that's mostly what my group plays. We tried Anima a little bit, and will be trying Shadowrun soon. Legend of the Five Rings has also been mentioned as a game a few of us want to play.

In Pathfinder, all undead are always evil. Except for a handful of ghosts, though that's mostly because they don't have the undead type, but have the incorporeal type instead. Some devs have repeatedly stated that undead and creating undead is always incredibly evil, and that even intelligent undead can never turn to a path to good. Though sometimes things slip through the cracks, like the Juju Mystery for the Oracle, or the Shadowdancer's Shadow minion. The Juju got patched pretty quickly afterwards, however.