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Author Topic: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE  (Read 1679386 times)

Radsoc

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #6885 on: August 18, 2018, 06:35:02 am »


https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1030739504011911168

https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1030751330065936384?s=20

Some kind of idealist form of socialism on the stage toward fully automated space communism :P

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"The hand-mill gives you society with the feudal lord; the steam-mill society with the industrial capitalist."

"To punish the oppressors of humanity is clemency; to forgive them is cruelty. The severity of tyrants has barbarity for its principle; that of a republican government is founded on beneficence."

Cruxador

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #6886 on: August 18, 2018, 12:18:38 pm »

Reminds me of a forum post Wiz made recently to the tune of "in a game with space dragons, post-scarcity communism that works isn't too bizarre of a fantasy for us to include". Personally, since the biggest impediment to functional communism is human nature, I think it's reasonable to include aliens who can do it. I look forward to a similar treatment to anarchism, especially anarcho-syndicalism and anarcho-tribalism.
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Radsoc

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #6887 on: August 18, 2018, 02:25:39 pm »

Well, basically I subscribe to the idea that social systems gravitate to the stability point/attractor that best conforms with the current level of technology. And that there is an inertia to change, that springs out of existing structures that still rely on how old technologies organize society, giving rise to class contradictions leading toward a revolution that make social systems conform with technology. This is basically the historical materialism of Marx. It should hold for any species consisting of relatively similar individuals with similar dimorphism (so maybe not for ant-type and so on species).

By definition any communism would be post-scarcity, the disagreements lie in how to get there. Early contradictions were for example between idealism and materialism, utopian vs scientific socialism. Goalwise, most types of anarchism would conform with communism. For a long time scientific socialism was synonymous with socialism post-Marx, but unfortunately that has changed to basically mean anything today.

With the upcoming update one could argue that the fixation to "shared burdens" might not be in line with the necessary flexibility that is required to deal with changes in reality. In the early Soviet Union implementation of socialism had to be abandoned short term to make it viable at a later point, long term, e.g. through the risky NEP. The PRC has a similar idea of developing productive forces, but take it one step further, and at least still claim to be in control. Yet, the stellaris snails might be past that, but the idea still remains, that core-egalitarianism does not necessarily imply a socialism in practice, and that the different policies shouldn't be hard locked for such civs. But, ok, if it's a "moral democracy", then it could make sense. But it wouldn't be communism or any kind of materialist/scientific socialism at that stage.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 02:27:33 pm by Radsoc »
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"The hand-mill gives you society with the feudal lord; the steam-mill society with the industrial capitalist."

"To punish the oppressors of humanity is clemency; to forgive them is cruelty. The severity of tyrants has barbarity for its principle; that of a republican government is founded on beneficence."

thegoatgod_pan

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #6888 on: August 19, 2018, 10:20:43 pm »

Reminds me of a forum post Wiz made recently to the tune of "in a game with space dragons, post-scarcity communism that works isn't too bizarre of a fantasy for us to include". Personally, since the biggest impediment to functional communism is human nature, I think it's reasonable to include aliens who can do it. I look forward to a similar treatment to anarchism, especially anarcho-syndicalism and anarcho-tribalism.

social systems gravitate to the stability point/attractor that best conforms with the current level of technology. And that there is an inertia to change, that springs out of existing structures that still rely on how old technologies organize society, giving rise to class contradictions leading toward a revolution that make social systems conform with technology.

By definition any communism would be post-scarcity, the disagreements lie in how to get there. Early contradictions were for example between idealism and materialism, utopian vs scientific socialism. Goalwise, most types of anarchism would conform with communism.

The problem with simulating anarcho anything, is that it will always be window-dressing covering the fact that all the means of control, production and planning are centralized in you--you, the player, sit at the top of the hierarchy that anarcho anything seeks to abolish--like it or not, the 4X genre is structurally either an autocracy, or if you are feeling generous, a communist dictatorship, but it does not yet represent a real system of social re-organization around technology or even popular dissent in a way that models authentic politics.


The closest game to accomplish truly modeling politics is Crusader Kings, and even there it is fairly rudimentary in the form of distinct vassals with distinct opinions all trying to poison you. The best 4x I can think of for actually having technology re-organize society is Fall From Heaven 2--I am thinking especially of the Ashen Veil religion which adjusts to the encroaching apocalypse with civics like "sacrifice the weak", with social implications neatly matching mechanics.

It reminds me of Ian Bogost's argument in Persuasive Games--games are good at representing complicated systems, but in the process of "representing", they tend to persuade players that the systems they represent are accurate and neutral images of reality, rather than ideological positions in themselves.

It is a bit like the recent press statement from the Cree Nation on Civ 6 https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/01/05/civilization-vi-cree-nation-cultural-representation/ 

They appreciate being included and all, but find Civ offensive for making colonialism literally the most basic mechanic within the game, and not including any alternatives (except Science victory, which we all know from Alpha Centauri etc. is just shifting colonial warfare to space)--you *have to* exterminate all nations in your way, either by burning their cities or eradicating their culture by subsuming it into yours: “It perpetuates this myth that First Nations had similar values that the colonial culture has, and that is one of conquering other peoples and accessing their land.”

For the Cree, this is over-writing all other historical social strategies, and especially their own ( although we can extrapolate that the same happens in many other cases e.g. the Roman Empire, notable for tolerating any and all cultural and religious differences so long as the taxes got paid and no rebellions happened) to make the one that specifically destroyed their culture A. totally normal and natural and B. inevitable, which turns a specific and particularly brutal period in history, into history itself--past, present, and future.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 10:39:44 pm by thegoatgod_pan »
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Teneb

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #6889 on: August 20, 2018, 01:21:10 pm »

Stellaris? In your console? It might be more likely than you think!

So, yeah. Stellaris for consoles. I really wonder how they translated the controls, because I can't picture it without mouse+keyboard.
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ZeroGravitas

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #6890 on: August 20, 2018, 01:45:20 pm »

rofl... and it's... version 1.7....

they are intentionally going to recreate the drama surrounding removal of FTL types

amazing
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Telgin

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #6891 on: August 20, 2018, 02:05:38 pm »

I'm pretty baffled at that decision too, and nobody has officially explained it yet.  My guess is that they chose a fixed version to begin porting with instead of trying to keep it current with the live version, and that they must have started this quite some time ago.

Not that it changes the impending hilarity, of course.
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Trekkin

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #6892 on: August 20, 2018, 02:36:30 pm »

rofl... and it's... version 1.7....

they are intentionally going to recreate the drama surrounding removal of FTL types

amazing

Clearly Xbox will be all-hyperlane, Playstation will have warp and Switch will have wormholes.
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Rolan7

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #6894 on: August 20, 2018, 03:05:34 pm »

Yeah, I'm flabbergasted.
I'm pretty baffled at that decision too, and nobody has officially explained it yet.  My guess is that they chose a fixed version to begin porting with instead of trying to keep it current with the live version, and that they must have started this quite some time ago.

Not that it changes the impending hilarity, of course.
They kinda confirmed that in this reply.
Not that it's really much of an explanation.  I get that they had to start somewhere, but... to release such an old version?  It's almost reassuring how insulting that is to the console customers.
Reassuring because so many series (The Elder Scrolls, arguably NewCOM) are designed for controllers instead of keyboard+mouse.  They say they won't do that here...  And the fact that they're putting out such an ancient version makes me believe them.

Ironically, some anons pointed out that the console versions UI looks cleaner and better even *for mouse and keyboard*.  And I'm not sure they're wrong, heh.  Playing Stellaris with a controller could maybe be a neat thing to try...  Except they did all this work for 1.7, there's no way we're getting any of this in PC Stellaris.

At least they're not wasting much dev-time on this, it's an outsourced job.  It probably means very little for Stellaris on PC, just a trippy business venture.
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Broseph Stalin

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #6895 on: August 21, 2018, 11:09:14 pm »

Recently picked up the game and I'm hooked. Uplifted a race and created templates of them that were super fast breeding, then enslaved them, then exterminated most of them to make room for more versatile pops. I'm like Space Hitler, except I invented the Jews.

Cruxador

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #6896 on: August 22, 2018, 12:09:30 am »

Nothing wrong with flushing an experiment that didn't pay off.
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Rolan7

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #6897 on: August 22, 2018, 12:21:15 am »

That's probably the most notable strength of Stellaris:  It's easy to play as space-Hitler or Star Trek Multiculturalism.
Or the other ethics, really!  Space religion or space transhumanism transapientism, space weapons or space plowshares, space rights or space safety, and yeah... space-Hitler or space-Multiculturalism.

The correct answer is United Nations of Earth, seeking new life and new civilizations.

And all your neighbors are militarist xenophobes because that's literally what they patched in to the game.  And your people lean toward militarism simply due to hostile neighbors, which is a neat twist.  And you have to decide whether to shift your ethics just a little, to survive...

Or you can literally just play EMPIRE O MAN PURGE THE XENOS.  Or Aliens as in the movie, eating everything.
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Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Broseph Stalin

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #6898 on: August 22, 2018, 06:07:55 am »

When I finally found Sol they were so disappointed I was Space Hitler.

Telgin

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Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #6899 on: August 22, 2018, 08:07:52 am »

And all your neighbors are militarist xenophobes because that's literally what they patched in to the game.

I can't tell if this is what you meant, but in my experience the game seems to try to generate a disproportionate number of AI empires with ethics opposed to yours, probably to try to keep the game interesting.  This means that when I played with pacifist materialist empires, the galaxy was just packed with evangelizing zealot religious militarist empires, but had the humorous effect of making the galaxy full of pacifists when I played a militarist empire.  Not every empire is like that and I occasionally had one or two friendly empires, but most are.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 11:14:27 am by Telgin »
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