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[smjjames]

There was no situation where Spain would ever have let them do this. It would have been effectively committing suicide to do so. No state can ever let a part of it illegaly seceed. No other country would either as it would directly threaten there stability.

True, however, as ChairmanPoo says, it's a thing of last resort since the main Spanish government isn't willing to sit down and negotiate with and listen to the grievances that the Catalonians have.

Hmm yeah, also the constitutional clause that disallows any sort of referendum is probably not legitimate in terms of international law. e.g. if you can't even ask to secede legally then your only resort is force. Hence, the way Catalonia is doing it is in fact the most legitimate tactic.

They can ask. They just need to amend the constitution, which is legally possible in their free and democratic country. Whether they have the political support for it is another matter, but the international law says nothing about that.

But regarding secession, customary international law is actually quite clear on this matter. The right to self-determination of people in non-colonial territory does not allow unilateral secession, save for remedial secession a la Kosovo--and Catalonia is not in a similar position for that to apply.

The other alternative is to settle it through war.

I wonder how that applies to the Kurds since all of the borders there were drawn by the colonialists and not the locals. I mean, would most of the MidEast be considered 'colonial territory' due to the protectorates and stuff under the British and French?

[da_nang]

I don't think former colonies remain colonial territory if they've already seceded.

Then again, I haven't looked enough into Kurdistan, so...

Bangladesh (East Pakistan) might be worth looking into.

[martinuzz]

Quite an apt cartoon on the Catalonian situation by Volkskrant cartoonist

https://www.volkskrant.nl/foto/bas-van-der-schot~p4368443/

[smjjames]

Bangladesh (East Pakistan) might be worth looking into.

They had a war over it. Which ended up with India getting involved on the side of Bangledesh for various reasons.

[Reelya]

Latest news just in on the Guardian feed:

Carles Puigdemont, Catalan’s leader, has announced that the region has won the right to independence following today’s referendum

Looks like the Catalonians are doubling-down on this.

[da_nang]

So is there going to be a unilateral DOI within 48 hours? That won't end well. People might die.

EDIT: Looks like so. Here comes the civil war.

[smjjames]

I hope there isn't a war over it......

[da_nang]

I know. I just can't see Spain backing down. It would be monumentally stupid if they did. Instant constitutional crisis, sovereignty void, economy crashing so soon after the Eurocrisis etc. No country wants that.

Catalonia can't hope to win a war against Spain. Not conventionally. They don't even have an army, nor do they have any foreign military to rely on (save for volunteers, I guess).

[hector13]

Are all the Spanish politicians this fucking supid, or are Rajoy and Puigdemont special cases?

[ChairmanPoo]

Eeh, they are fairly representative of the lot. Few of our politicians are any good.

I was not expecting any of this, though. Not the doubling down, not the violence. I expected the Govern to use the referendum as a grand gesture (because noone can expect such a thing to be binding, particularily with so few guarantees), and the goverment to throw a hissy fit and seize urns and pull the plug on computer systems. And for both of them to sit down and negotiate a compromise afterwards. 



There are other consequences from all of this. The goverment is in minority at the moment anf they need to approve the budget. Odds are noone will vote with them after this

[da_nang]

Puigdemont is an idiot for going ahead with an obviously illegal referendum.

Rajoy obviously lacks tact, but Puigdemont forced the government's hands. Could they have done it smoother? Maybe. Maybe not. You can't enforce the law (seizing the illegal referendum ballots) if the people are voluntarily obstructing the police from doing their job.

[ChairmanPoo]

You *shouldn't* enforce the law when it's unjust and immoral. Beating grannies in the street for a referendum thst was all noise and no substance is unjust and immoral. And has made the nationalist's position much stronger. Really, the central goverment has blundered badly

[hector13]

Puigdemont announced this months ago, the ball has been in Rajoy's court since then and there was a lot more he could've done to deal with the problem between then and now. That likely wouldn't involve the police kicking the shit out of the locals for daring to want a say in how they're ruled.

Ninja'd but whatevs. I'm not a fan of violent political repression. Did not expect to be saying that about Spain.

[da_nang]

You *shouldn't* enforce the law when it's unjust and immoral. Beating grannies in the street for a referendum thst was all noise and no substance is unjust and immoral. And has made the nationalist's position much stronger. Really, the central goverment has blundered badly

Obstructing the law doesn't make them saints, either. There was a legal court order to seize the ballot boxes and put an end to the referendum. Block the path and you'll get dealt with appropriately.

And quite frankly, after Puigdemont threw out the constitution as used toiled paper, they do not have the monopoly on what is just or moral.

The law has monopoly on what is just, no one has a monopoly on what is moral.

[ChairmanPoo]

Obstructing the law doesn't make them saints, either.

Very much not. I said as much before. I dont know where you people are getting the news, but you keep polarizing around either demonizing the nationalists or whitewashing them. Things are not that simple.

There was a legal court order to seize the ballot boxes and put an end to the referendum. Block the path and you'll get dealt with appropriately.

Legal court orders don't make it right.

And quite frankly, after Puigdemont threw out the constitution as used toiled paper, they do not have the monopoly on what is just or moral.

We could discuss for hours the problems inherent to the Spanish constitution, and/or the repeated abuse that the Catalonians have undergone at the hands of the central goverment (eg: delliberate sabotage of the Catalonian healthcare system), or the PP's repeated unwillingness to fulfill it's promises to Catalonia. It's probably not the right thread , and quite frankly I don't have the time to go in extent about this. But once again you're oversimplifying a problem that is very complex and traces down to problems that have been ongoing for decades

The law has monopoly on what is just, no one has a monopoly on what is moral.

It hasn't got a monopoly on either. It only has a monopoly on what is legal... but you cannot legislate away a whole people.