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[martinuzz]

Asylum seekers have no obligations under the Dublin Agreement. All it says is the member state that the asylum seeker first state it can be proven they earliest entered is responsible for processing the asylum claim.

This does, however, place an entirely unfair burden on EU border states.

Which is why there's been negotiations over redistribution for years now. It doesn't work though, as long as there are countries refusing to take part.

[smjjames]

Asylum seekers have no obligations under the Dublin Agreement. All it says is the member state that the asylum seeker first state it can be proven they earliest entered is responsible for processing the asylum claim.

This does, however, place an entirely unfair burden on EU border states.

Which is why there's been negotiations over redistribution for years now. It doesn't work though, as long as there are countries refusing to take part.

It certainly doesn't seem like it's designed to be able to handle a refugee crisis like what Europe is having now, just the usual average.

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

Meanwhile, it appears that the lid cannot quite stay on in Germany. The lid intended to avoid a backlash against migrants overall, when some migrants are found complicit in sex crime and, recently, murder. Naturally, that lid creates more scalding steam than the pot would do by itself.
I shall make a confession. It rather revolts me how the first concern in the minds of (some) state and media authorities seems to be how to hide and negate the possible fallout from the crimes of certain groups, and to ensure nothing can risk upsetting the current arrangement. That the safety, the very lives, apparently, of native citizens are, in effect, worth less than the warm, self-indulgent feeling of false generousity one gets when one calls for the borders to be open and everyone allowed in to stay, no questions asked.
The worst of it is that it is not working. It will only bolster the importance and range of these 'false news' sources. It would appear that they come in flavours False and 'False'. Demonstrably untrue or not aligned with the correct and proper narrative. In their fright and worry to not frighten people into the arms of reactionary elements, they fail to see that the silence and the defensiveness does that quite splendidly on its own.
Now, I do not intend it as a boot particularly aimed at Germany's rear, as it were, for I was taught to not throw stones in glass houses, and policy in Sweden is no better. None at all, and I believe part of the reason why this upsets me so is that it strikes so close to home. It is something I have had to see up close, and it is sickening, infuriating, and does more to boil one's blood than what any of the clowns, that government and media are so afraid of helping, could manage on their own.
I am just fed up with it. I really am. I am a horrible old xenophobe, or so I have been told, but a degree of xenophobia is evidently warranted in these times...

Can't people avoid binary thought? Bad and good people exist in every single social group.

[Silverthrone]

Naturally. Although I did fail to express it properly, I believe it is one of those things that can be safely assumed. There is, of course, much more gradiance to the whole business. There always is. However, stamping on a disclaimber to express such a basic thing would be rather needless. Of course, if not doing it does make me seem entirely binary in my thinking, then perhaps I ought to, for clarity, or at least include it properly.

Another reason to why I do not like to use such disclaimbers is that they have a tendency to turn into a tired exorcise in the bleeding obvious, as it were. "But there is more to it, there is good and bad people both, let us not get bogged down in We and Them", and the likes. All very important facts to consider, but it is a very basic observation. With all that said, however, something has gone rather wrong if I have managed to express the sort of entirely binary line of thinking I dislike so. I will have to think of a way to make that disclaimber come accross.

[martinuzz]

Our state secretary of Safety and Justice has announced that, 'to prevent bad things like Cologne happening', asylum seekers who have come into contact with the police for causing nuisance (like public intoxication and sexual harassment), will be forced to forego any Old Year's eve celebrations. They will all get a temporary access ban from public areas for the duration of Old Year's eve and New Year's day, and will be kept locked inside the refugee shelter locations they're housed at.
The 'notorious troublemakers', for the most part, are Moroccans and Algerians, whose chances for asylum are hopeless, but are stuck in the system's inability to extradite them. Many of them first arrived in Germany, so they will have to be sent back there first, and then Germany needs to extradite them back to Morocco and Algeria (that is, if the recipient countries agree to take them back). This procedure takes ages. Many asylum seekers have been living in shelter locations for years.

TBH I'm not sure this will hold. The state secretary might want this, but there's still a thing like ne bis in idem, and a constitutional protection against freedom of movement being impaired without due trial.

[DreamerGhost]

*facepalm*

This temporary ban paints Germany as evil fascists they fear to be while doing practically nothing about the actual problem.
At least they are doing something I suppose.

[smjjames]

*facepalm*

This temporary ban paints Germany as evil fascists they fear to be while doing practically nothing about the actual problem.
At least they are doing something I suppose.

*ahem* Martinuzz is from the Netherlands.

I do agree that it's rather extreme. Not sure why they have to be sent to Germany first and THEN extradite.

[scriver]

I have a bad memory for names, but I do believe it is the Dublin immigration deal that says that all immigrants have to be processed by the EU member they first apply for asylum in. Therefore it is also that country that have to extradite them.

But that is actually irrelevant, because the real problem is that they can't be extradited anyway, because they can't deport people to countries that don't want to accept them.

[smjjames]

Then at least try to assimilate them? They shouldn't be stuck in the refugee camps.

[scriver]

They aren't stuck, they are staying by their own choice.

And frankly I don't think integration of people whose first interaction with the new state is a refusal to comply with it's laws (and then throwing a tantrum, laying themselves on the floor and refusing to move until they get what they want) is going to be very successful.

[smjjames]

Good point, I didn't know what the specific situation was.

[scriver]

On second thought I must confess that I spoke out of my rectum: The situation described (that people can leave whenever they want) is what is true here in Sweden. I simply assumed that it would work similarly in Germany, but I don't know for certain.

[martinuzz]

I do agree that it's rather extreme. Not sure why they have to be sent to Germany first and THEN extradite.

EU regulations state that an asylum seeker has to apply for asylum in the first country they registered in. For most Moroccans and Algerians here in the Netherlands, that is Germany.
But first they can appeal in Dutch court against having to apply for asylum in Germany. Which is doomed to fail unless they can prove their first country of entry is the Netherlands.
If they exhausted all appeals for that, up to High Court, they can be extradited to Germany, where they can begin their asylum procedure (which has near zero chance, unless they can prove their life is in danger because of their sexuality, they'll have to go back to Algeria or Morocco, because those are safe countries).
Still, they can stall for years. First in the Netherlands, then in Germany.
It's not unheard for the whole appeal procedure to take 4-5 years in the Netherlands, plus similar in Germany.
Those that really want to stall, appeal to the EU human rights court after a national high court dismisses appeal. That will get them some more years of waiting out the procedure.
Not sure why anyone would prefer wasting the good years of their life like that over going back to Morocco or Algeria though. It's an empty life of mostly sitting in a vegetative state in an asylum center, not being allowed to work and with minimum allowance (which sadly makes petty crime an appealing alternative).

For some reason the myth in many African countries is still alive that, as long as you manage to get a residence permit in the Western EU, you'll get job opportunities, or bountiful benefits and be set for life.
The harsh reality is those who do manage to get residence, find themselves underpaid if they can find a job at all, or stuck in deplorable poverty when they are depending on benefits.

It's true that 40 years ago social welfare benefits made for a decent living. Nowadays, after 40 years of not correcting the social benefits for purchasing power, it's a poverty trap with no perspective. I wish the economic refugees from the better off African countries would learn that there are no golden mountains over here either.
If they'd just put the money, time and effort it takes to try to get a permit through endless legal fighting into setting up a living in their country of origin, they'd be better off, I'm quite sure.

[martinuzz]

They aren't stuck, they are staying by their own choice.

Yes and no.
Yes, they are staying there by own choice insofar, that they choose to appeal endlessly in the hopes of getting asylum.

And no, those awaiting asylum procedures, without official permit status are kinda stuck in the refugee shelters. The only other choice they have is rent (illegally) in the private sector (which is unaffordable unless they have some illegal income source), or sleep in the streets. Social housing is only available for residents.

[scriver]

Staying in the country by their own choice was what I was getting at.