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Author Topic: Latin American Politics: Moralism  (Read 95257 times)

Culise

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Re: Latin American Politics: Vamanos, muchacho Putin
« Reply #375 on: January 18, 2018, 10:49:15 pm »

In the grim darkness of the 21st century, there is no diplomacy, only flame wars.
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Sheb

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Re: Latin American Politics: Vamanos, muchacho Putin
« Reply #376 on: January 19, 2018, 02:22:56 am »

\/O\/

More like Trump's same rhetoric of 'we will make other countries respect us again and put them in their place!', except applied to Trump and respecting Trump at the same time. Basically playing Trump at his own game while at the same time, not playing Trump at his own game.

Or TL;DR: "We're going to teach Trump to respect us, BUT, we will respect him first."

Hardly surprising. It's funny how populist all forgets that other countries also have electorates, and expect them to take abuse without flinching.
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smjjames

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Re: Latin American Politics: We'll build a wall and make the US pay for it
« Reply #377 on: January 19, 2018, 10:34:02 am »

\/O\/

More like Trump's same rhetoric of 'we will make other countries respect us again and put them in their place!', except applied to Trump and respecting Trump at the same time. Basically playing Trump at his own game while at the same time, not playing Trump at his own game.

Or TL;DR: "We're going to teach Trump to respect us, BUT, we will respect him first."

Hardly surprising. It's funny how populist all forgets that other countries also have electorates, and expect them to take abuse without flinching.

Trump is especially thin skinned though.
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Reelya

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Re: Latin American Politics: We'll build a wall and make the US pay for it
« Reply #378 on: January 30, 2018, 11:46:27 pm »

Here's one for y'all:

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/americans-who-visited-cuba-reporting-similar-symptoms-suffered-by-us-diplomats/news-story/732946a1cd7a8bb96b8ad80e805fbcd4

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AMERICANS are returning from Cuba with strange symptoms, including hearing loss and brain abnormalities, prompting suggestions the island nation is “attacking” Americans.

Almost two dozen Americans who travelled to Cuba have reported experiencing similar symptoms to those suffered by US diplomats serving at the American Embassy, Fox News reports.

...

At least 24 US Embassy officials in Cuba had reported hearing loud, grating noises before experiencing ear issues, hearing loss, dizziness, headache, fatigue, cognitive issues and difficulty sleeping.

Doctors reportedly discovered the diplomats suffered from brain abnormalities, as the white matter in their brains had “developed changes”.

The US has stood by their allegations that Cuba in some way deliberately attacked the American officials — which Cuba has adamantly denied — and earlier this month raised the possibility that a virus was deployed intentionally to infect workers.

I'm scared by that "white matter in their brains had 'developed changes' " thing. Just what have they done to their brains? Are they doppelgangers or have their brains been replaced by alien life-forms?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2018, 11:48:43 pm by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Latin American Politics: We'll build a wall and make the US pay for it
« Reply #379 on: January 31, 2018, 12:08:12 am »

If it's a virus, then how come other non-Americans haven't reported it yet AFAIK? I seriously doubt Cuba would be able to confine a virus to only infecting Americans and not infect other people.

The 'developed changes' is just a medically vague term possibly referring to lesions.

Still, it's a hell of a mystery as to what the heck is going on.
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scriver

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Re: Latin American Politics: We'll build a wall and make the US pay for it
« Reply #380 on: January 31, 2018, 01:01:41 am »

Maybe socialism is actually a virus, and that's why it's not infecting other countries - they already carry a strain. Maybe their catching communism.
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SaberToothTiger

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Re: Latin American Politics: We'll build a wall and make the US pay for it
« Reply #381 on: January 31, 2018, 01:14:55 am »

Maybe it's proof for the theory that the yanqui nation is inferior to the Glorious Cuban Master Race. Maybe Cuba will now go for a Manifest Destiny on the US (in this metaphor the US will be both the Mexicans and the Indians).
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Reelya

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Re: Latin American Politics: We'll build a wall and make the US pay for it
« Reply #382 on: January 31, 2018, 01:32:51 am »

Heh, on the Latin note, I read something a little while ago that made me :/ about Venezuela. Note, not supporting Maduro: more pointing out how idiotic both sides coverage of events is.

One American journalist wrote : "the economy is collapsing, there are protests in the streets, yet the president hasn't been toppled from office. That's not how Democracy works".

Umm, actually, that is exactly how democracy works. He won the last Presidential election. His term hasn't expired yet. The entire nation could turn into a zombie-infested hell-hole, because he accidentally released the T-Virus, and it would still be his legal term in office. And if you're legally in office, and there is violence trying to topple you, you're fully in your legal rights to ask the police to prevent the violence, which is what has happened. There's nothing illegal about shutting down actual riots that are trying to overthrow the government. The idea that elected leaders who prove unpopular must be violently overthrown or it's not "true democracy" seems like a pretty weird - and convenient - definition to apply here.

BTW right now, the Constituent Assembly has set April 30th as the far-limit for the next presidential election in Venezuela, so there's going to be some election coverage and news etc. Here is some breakdown of the parties and candidates involved.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/13627

These are some potential opposition candidates:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ramos_Allup, "Democratic Action" party
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Falc%C3%B3n, "Fatherland for all" party
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9s_Vel%C3%A1squez, "Radical Cause" party

But note, Americans probably won't take comfort in any of these people winning. e.g. -

- Henry Ramos Allup is an opposition candidate, who was elected head of the National Assembly by the MUD coalition, when they ousted the PSUV im 2015, which America hailed as a great day for Democracy, but he was also elected president of the Socialist International in 2012.

- Henri Falcon is an ex-PSUV guy (came out of Maduro's party). He's in MUD now, representing the "Fatherland for all" party, who list themselves as a Libertarian Marxist / social democratic party / "Comunismo de izquierda" party - this means anti-bolshevik communist, literally "left communist". I guess they're like Trotskyists or something.

- Andrés Velásquez is the leader of a party called "Radical Cause", who are listed as a "revolutionary socialist political party".

Here's the list of pretty much ever party that has any standing in Venezuela.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Venezuela

The thing you gotta love is how scary most of the party names are "Primero Justicia", "A New Era", "Popular Will", "La Causa Radical", "Cuentas Claras" (clear accounts), "Fearless People's Alliance", "Vanguardia Bicentenaria Republicana, "Emergent People", "Project Venezuela", "Fatherland for all" ... all sound pretty fascistic. And these are most of the non-Maduro choices to pick from.

"Primero Justicia" "Justice First" is the biggest opposition party, but they're a radical socialist party, who have a platform of democratizing all the means of production. e.g. they're further towards trad. socialism than even Maduro:
Quote
On March 2009, the party's national coordinator Julio Borges said, "Venezuela lives under state capitalism, not socialism".[5] The party's economic position is so-called "properties democratization," similar to a social market economy. In the 2012 presidential election, Henrique Capriles described himself as humanist and progressive.

"Acción Democrática" Democratic Action are the second-biggest opposition party. They're also the party responsible for the biggest massacre of protestors in Venezuelan history, in 1992, when the government killed somewhere between several hundred to several thousand protestors. Apparently the "Democratic" part of the "Action" is where they send the army in to shoot protestors. Note, however for anyone hoping that Democratic Action is going to put the past behind them and be a true conservative option: they're also members of Socialist International.

"Un Nuevo Tiempo" A New Era" which joined the Socialist International in 2013. Their policies favor join private/public ownership of resources, state economic planning, and creating a sovereign wealth fund. I'd say they're sort of like Signapore then, but with lip service to Sweden's sort of social value system.

Next after that is "Voluntad Popular" => "Popular Will", yet another Venezuelan party who's part of Socialist International..

... and they're followed by the fore-mentioned "La Causa Radical", who bill themselves as "revolutionary socialists", and were founded by previous communist guerillas during the military junta / dictatorship era.

... who are followed by "Movimiento Progresista de Venezuela" who write:
Quote
We, militants of the Venezuelan Progressive Movement, aware that the fundamental enemy of today's Venezuelans is poverty and social injustice , believe that the model of development to defeat these scourges is that which provides social progress. be built through a mixed economy where the state is the owner of the basic basic industries, managed with appropriate management and technical criteria, and distributed, but at the same time, the State must guarantee clear rules to private initiative and legal guarantees in the long term with the purpose of promoting it.

There's another party, sort of like the Republicans, the Christian Democrats, they used to be the #2 party, however they boycotted the last several elections and have no seats. Trump would like them to win, the most, probably.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 03:08:12 am by Reelya »
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Reelya

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Re: Latin American Politics: Troskyist Comintern 2018
« Reply #383 on: January 31, 2018, 06:56:06 pm »

Interesting different take on the three parties "banned" from running in Venezuela, which highlights how the media doesn't give the full story:

Remember, western media was saying that certain parties were banned from running? It turns out that all that actually happened was that they made them fill out their party registration paperwork again. All of those parties are in fact registered and running in the election.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/13621

Quote
This past December, Venezuela’s ANC approved a decree requiring the three largest opposition parties to renew themselves with the CNE following their controversial decision to boycott December 10 municipal elections.

AD, First Justice, and the Popular Will party together with the Union and Understanding Party (Puente) and Democratic Unity Roundtable (MUD) opposition umbrella party were required to prove they have the support of at least 0.5 percent of registered voters in 12 states.

So, the "banning" effectively meant they needed to go and collect signatures from 0.5% of the electorate each. Sure, this was probably in retaliation for the time in December where those parties mass-boycotted the last elections, then when the other party won the elections unopposed, they cried foul and called for foreign military intervention.

But basically, it amounts to little more than making someone do extra paperwork. It's not the kind of thing an actual dictatorship does. Maduro isn't a military strongman: he just annoys you with additional forms to fill out.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 07:20:35 pm by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Latin American Politics: Troskyist Comintern 2018
« Reply #384 on: January 31, 2018, 07:03:33 pm »

As for the whole bunch of socialist parties, didn't the whole Chavez/Maduro stuff show the problems with at least the Chavez/Maduro brand of socialism? I don't know how much of it can be purely attributed to socialist policies not working (as Republicans would love to tell you, despite Social Security being a thing) vs just mismanagement and corruption. I'm sure there's probably a fierce debate over that among some people in Venezuela.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 07:05:54 pm by smjjames »
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Reelya

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Re: Latin American Politics: Troskyist Comintern 2018
« Reply #385 on: January 31, 2018, 07:22:29 pm »

GDP growth during much of the Chavez era was astronomically high, they were beating China some years in terms of growth rate.

Also, pre-1998, the percentage under the poverty line was 53% of the population, and inflation was hitting 100% per annum. Average inflation was about 1/3rd during Chavez as it was in the decade before him. While there are still problems, the fallacy is to compare that to a first-world nation, and to omit what it was actually like before Chavez. The structural issues facing Maduro are in fact the same structural issues that were in place before Chavez ever hit the scene.

They just omit the context completely. Google "Venezuela drought" and you'll see they've been in drought for 4+ years now. The country's electric grid is hydro-based. So they had power cuts because of the drought. The western media then writes that the power cuts are "because socialism!" which is treating you, the reader, like a complete moron.

It's also always been a country dependent on the oil price, and you can google oil price charts, and see that the economic crisis just happens to line up with both an extended slump in interational oil prices, along with the protracted drought, which has caused local agricultural output to plummet. So, they can't grow food, they can't import food. But all the context is omitted:



The drought began in 2013, then the international oil price crashed by half around the end of 2014. Oil makes up 96% of Venezuelan export revenue, and 50% of total GDP. And that halved in 2014.

Writers who say "look what Socialism did" are basically treating you like a complete idiot. e.g. if "being a socialist" makes you unable to grow farm crops, then where are the collective farms? Venezuela doesn't have collective farms - farming is privatized like it's always been. There are a few co-ops and local collectives, but they're only a tiny proportion of the agricultural output of Venezuela, which grew faster during Chavez's time than it did before. Chavez used the oil money to help poor people, food consumption shot up as a result, and farm output doubled in the time Chavez was in charge, because of growth in demand.

Farm output then suddenly plummeted in 2013, the same year the drought began. Oh, but, yeah, it plummeted as a "inevitable result of socialism" and not "because of the drought".
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 07:54:13 pm by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Latin American Politics: Troskyist Comintern 2018
« Reply #386 on: January 31, 2018, 07:52:35 pm »

I guess you can blame Saudi Arabia for it's woes because the initial price crash came from the fracking/oil sands boom, then looks like it started to recover, then right around there is when Saudi Arabia went rougue with OPEC in an attempt to destroy the competition happening in America.

So, yeah, looks like the primary blame is being a mono-product economy (I know there's an actual term, but I forget what it is) and the supposedly reliable oil prices ended up being not so reliable. Unfortunately, from what I've heard, Maduro seems to be doubling down on it rather than diverstifying.

Also sounds like they may have burnt themselves out with unsustainably high growth?
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Reelya

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Re: Latin American Politics: Troskyist Comintern 2018
« Reply #387 on: January 31, 2018, 07:57:54 pm »

Maduro gets flack for not investing more in oil from the international media. But they also blame him for the economy being too oil-dependent. Basically, you can't read anything into that because they've set up a damned if you do / damned if you don't narrative. It's therefore completely speculative.

To put the oil price issue in perspective, oil revenues makes up 50% of GDP. And the price halved. That means they had a near-instantaneous drop of 25% of GDP.

How could you actually blame someone's domestic policies for "causing a recession" in those circumstances? Scale-wise it's equivalent to almost $5 trillion being wiped off the GDP of the USA.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 08:08:30 pm by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Latin American Politics: Troskyist Comintern 2018
« Reply #388 on: January 31, 2018, 08:05:41 pm »

I meant more in the 'breeze from a butterflys wings creates a thunderstorm' kind of way, unless you meant 'domestic policies' as in Maduro's domestic policies and not Saudi Arabia's.

In that specific circumstance, yes, I agree, it was absolutely out of Venezuela's control.

Given that hindsight is 20/20, I'm sure there are things that could have been done that didn't make things worse after the recession (more like a Great Depression by now for Venezuelans) started.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 08:07:53 pm by smjjames »
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Teneb

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Re: Latin American Politics: Troskyist Comintern 2018
« Reply #389 on: January 31, 2018, 08:06:59 pm »

Maduro gets flack for not investing more in oil from the international media. But they also blame him for the economy being too oil-dependent. Basically, you can't read anything into that because they've set up a damned if you do / damned if you don't narrative. It's therefore completely speculative.

To put the oil price issue in perspective, oil revenues makes up 50% of GDP. And the price halved. That means they had a near-instananeous drop of 25% of GDP.

How could you actually blame someone's domestic policies for "causing a recession" in those circumstances? Scale-wise it's equivalent to almost $5 trillion being wiped off the GDP of the USA.
Maduro gets flack for not investing more in oil from the international media. But they also blame him for the economy being too oil-dependent. Basically, you can't read anything into that because they've set up a damned if you do / damned if you don't narrative. It's therefore completely speculative.

To put the oil price issue in perspective, oil revenues makes up 50% of GDP. And the price halved. That means they had a near-instananeous drop of 25% of GDP.

How could you actually blame someone's domestic policies for "causing a recession" in those circumstances? Scale-wise it's equivalent to almost $5 trillion being wiped off the GDP of the USA.
Well, obviously it was all his and Chavez's fault for being such socialist wretches! If only Venezuela was in the hands of right-thinking captains of industry, this would never have happened! /s

On a less snarky note, it's basically a whole host of issues fucking over Venezuela. Maduro, who is midly incompetent. A massive drought. Oligarchs smelling blood on the water and leveraging foreign midia towards their ends. Saudis fucking with oil prices. Militaries masturbating to memories of Plan Condor. It kind of adds up.
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