Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 19 20 [21] 22 23 ... 125

Author Topic: Brexit! Conversation Continued  (Read 99020 times)

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #300 on: July 07, 2016, 03:28:52 pm »

Quote
It's not sustainable to deny reality m8
The reality IS that it is racism. Both articles outright spell it out.
Pretty big denial right there m8

*EDIT
Oi Neo, can you finish your posts before you post them
Very awkward to have to reply to posts you've edited into your posts lol

Then again I knew this problem in Britain for a VERY long time... and it isn't going away.
Cos you living quite snug across the Atlantic know Britain more than I?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 03:30:45 pm by Loud Whispers »
Logged

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #301 on: July 07, 2016, 03:43:53 pm »

Not sure if your serious or doing a parody of anti-immigration.

"Cos you living quite snug across the Atlantic know Britain more than I?"

It was rather low key for quite sometime, but I actually like me some British people! So you listen and pick up on things people say and their general attitudes.

It was why I was immediately prepared to jump on the Leavers... Because it co-relates.
Logged

Sergarr

  • Bay Watcher
  • (9) airheaded baka (9)
    • View Profile
Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #302 on: July 07, 2016, 04:13:21 pm »

"In case you worried your new unelected Tory PM might be progressive, Andrea Leadsom wants you to know she still opposes gay marriage"

Looks like UK is going for closer relationships with Russia. Fitting, considering they've just dumped EU, but quite weird nonetheless.
Logged
._.

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #303 on: July 07, 2016, 04:27:36 pm »

"In case you worried your new unelected Tory PM might be progressive, Andrea Leadsom wants you to know she still opposes gay marriage"
Looks like UK is going for closer relationships with Russia. Fitting, considering they've just dumped EU, but quite weird nonetheless.
Ahahaha progressives want the Conservatives to be the progressive party

Not sure if your serious or doing a parody of anti-immigration.
Dead serious it's the current year oioi

"Cos you living quite snug across the Atlantic know Britain more than I?"
It was rather low key for quite sometime, but I actually like me some British people! So you listen and pick up on things people say and their general attitudes.
From who and where? Very important question right there if you're using British expats in Canada in order to judge a whole race of people on an island you don't live on... Oh shit lol, you're the definition of racist

It was why I was immediately prepared to jump on the Leavers... Because it co-relates.
Nah I think it's more your prejudices made you jump to attack people you don't understand

Britain, Germany, both very tolerant nations, both with strong civic beliefs, yet multiculturalism failed - heck, it failed in Sweden, and no one in the world was more tolerant to freaking everything than Swedes, they still are the most tolerant and it's still failling. Don't attack people you don't understand for being racist, then say that the failure of projects that were thrust on people without consulting them was their fault for being too racist lol when you don't even know them.
If you criticize multiculturalism = racist, if multiculturalism failed = you were too racist, if you think being concerned with mass migration is legitimate = racist, therefore to be ignored, what can you possibly learn from the world with such close mindedness?

Pardon, but you live in Canada - a country with such an enviable position in the world, it is worth killing for. Your country is a population of 35 million people spread over a freaking continent. The population of the UK is 65 million, the population of Germany is 80 million. You could fit Germany and the UK in a single Canadian province like Alberta. Politically you are stable, economically you do well off enough that there is low unemployment, war will never touch your country and you are bordered on two flanks by the greatest expanses of ocean providing wealth and security from the turmoil of the world island. No Canadian can claim to have been Canadian for long, no historical Canadian culture or identity can be claimed that is not civic or even exists to be protected (besides aboriginals who exist in tiny numbers), most importantly Canada has very little preexisting ties with the world, with migrants drawn all over the world. No one migrant group dominates in ethnicity, language, culture or religion, dramatically increasing the incentive to integrate, and dramatically decreasing the likelihood of segregated ghettos forming, forming no ethnic basins for divided people, no Pakistani British, French Maghrebian, German Turk cities within cities, most importantly illegal migration AND migration rates to Canada cannot even compare to what European countries face, all migration goes through your formal vetting and legal procedures because your only land border is with the USA and your ports are not near any foreign populated centres.

Less people, a continent's worth more land, more stability, no security threats, no historical identity, culture, no illegal migration, government controls migration easily, migrants are atomized, few in number, at a rate the Canadian government controls, spread throughout Canada with innate incentives to integrate.
Clearly the issue is that the world is too racist for precious Canadians?

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #304 on: July 07, 2016, 04:53:21 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Though I do think "I" am the one who needs to back off. I am basing it only on articles, and very questionable people, that kind of don't paint a very good picture. With one being "It failed, but not for the reasons people assume, that being we suck and not the people we are inviting" and another being "It failed because Foreigners are like British Kryptonite, it saps our Britishness."

---

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote
Politically you are stable

Yeah this is one of the things I don't understand about some countries.

I don't mean the ones where there is political turmoil... That is understandable to me.

I mean the countries where their ministry or senate will sometimes, or often, break into outright mass brawl.

To me that is embarrassing and that they should have some dignity and decorum. I can only guess the reason they break into fights is because of a difference in what they perceive they are doing? Like if you believe in your position you should be willing to fight for it?

---

Then again Canada's cultural identity is strong but weak and deeply ingrained in Multiculturalism... and our multiculturalism was forced upon us by the method of our creation... and even then we had the whole "White Canada Forever" phase.

So we haven't had the situation where we had a very strong cultural identity (well maybe Quebec) and had a single culture.

So perhaps I am not being empathetic enough. It is still a tough concept to get around though, since I don't really "get" nationalism (I think that is the correct term)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 05:12:16 pm by Neonivek »
Logged

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #305 on: July 07, 2016, 05:13:19 pm »

Spoiler: WOLOLO derail (click to show/hide)
What Americans call the countryside, Europeans call wilderness
What Europeans call ghettos, Americans call the national guard

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #306 on: July 07, 2016, 05:19:01 pm »

Sorry I forget the connotation Ghetto gets.

I mean it by its strict definition. Not the "Run down broken down neighborhood"

Quote
Ah, so you guys are gonna get in our boat, I still think you guys are gonna pull it off a hell of a lot smoother. Either gonna be you or Sweden that becomes 80% migrant first, and I think you two will handle it very differently

Well technically Canada is near 100% Migrant :P

As I said "Country of immigrants"

Quote
That's not a call for you to back out, that's a call for you to post anything that would help explain your viewpoint.

I dunno, I feel like I am the one doing something wrong here. >_< and it isn't nice to kind of say that about people. Then again my temper has subsided so I don't feel so ranty.

---

Actually one of the major reasons why the USA has a larger population then Canada, interestingly enough, is because for most of its history the USA had a more relaxed immigration policy and Canada was the one barring people from coming in.

Canada's current attitudes towards immigrants is actually disappointingly recent.

Quote
Ah, so you guys are gonna get in our boat, I still think you guys are gonna pull it off a hell of a lot smoother

Yeah...
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 05:21:50 pm by Neonivek »
Logged

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #307 on: July 07, 2016, 05:20:48 pm »

I personally know people who strongly believe that multiculturalism has failed. And I think they're wrong. There are very noticable places that it hasn't succeeded, which affects perceptions.  The fault lies with very unmulticultural attitudes from several decades ago, when the pressures towards self-ghettoisation could have been nipped in the bud.

Relatively few of the problems are from first, or even second, generation immigrants. Which I think shows that it's not the imported culture but the homegrown tensions (both ways) that turn things awry.

And Brexit isn't going to help, so I'm not even sure of the thread relevence.  But as a native and current Brit (haven't done the vanity DNA thing, buf I expect plenty of Britonnic genes, too, perhaps with a suspected smattering of Pict), maybe I can have an opinion on this anyway.

(Too many ninjaing posts coming in...  Will read them shortly.)
Logged

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #308 on: July 07, 2016, 05:38:01 pm »

Sorry I forget the connotation Ghetto gets.
I mean it by its strict definition. Not the "Run down broken down neighborhood"
If we're going by the basic definition of areas occupied by minority groups then loads of European capitals are giant ghettos, so the clarification of definitions is important xD

Well technically Canada is near 100% Migrant :P
Nah, it's a semantic difference, but your first guys (excluding aboriginals) were settlers, settling in an area with few or no inhabitants. Migrants by definition are not moving to an area with few previous inhabitants, but are moving to a foreign existing country to become a permanent resident
I don't think there's much difference though lol, just seems worth mentioning at a time where even refugee and migrant are becoming synonymous

I dunno, I feel like I am the one doing something wrong here. >_< and it isn't nice to kind of say that about people. Then again my temper has subsided so I don't feel so ranty.
You actually seem really polite when angry
I don't know what you found unkind

Actually one of the major reasons why the USA has a larger population then Canada, interestingly enough, is because for most of its history the USA had a more relaxed immigration policy and Canada was the one barring people from coming in.
No it's because the USA has the most arable land in the world
Using wikishit
Quote
All the colonies, after they were started, grew mostly by natural growth, with foreign born populations rarely exceeding 10% in isolated instances. The last significant colonies to be settled mainly by immigrants were Pennsylvania in the early 18th century and Georgia and the Borderlands in the late 18th century, as migration (not immigration) continued to provide nearly all the settlers for each new colony or state. This pattern would continue throughout U.S. history. The extent of colonial settlements by 1800 is shown by this map from the University of Texas map collection.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_the_United_States
Most arable land in the world, most farms in the world, most kids in the world

Also lmao I love that Mexican Texas was overrun by illegal American migrants who seized control from the state

Canada's current attitudes towards immigrants is actually disappointingly recent.
I thought you guys were getting more open, even offering to take Syrians from us?

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #309 on: July 07, 2016, 05:55:10 pm »

Migrants by definition are not moving to an area with few previous inhabitants, but are moving to a foreign existing country to become a permanent resident

Nope.  Nothing in the definition mentions existing inhabitants (e: or indeed countries, foreign or otherwise).

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=definition+migrant&oq=definition+migrant

"Colonists" might suggest no existing (or none that 'count') existing inhabitants, but migrating doesn't even rule out that they've been there before, as sole or co-inhabitants, moved out again, moved back again, impermanently...

E2: Yes, just checked, and "immigrant" is probably the word you want (implies a country to "im-" into, also permanence), or in the opposite context "emigrant" ("em-"ing out of a given country, suggesting towards here). But while the lazy umbrella term covers both, it covers many other circumstances too.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 06:05:54 pm by Starver »
Logged

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #310 on: July 07, 2016, 06:11:10 pm »

Nope.  Nothing in the definition mentions existing inhabitants.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=definition+migrant&oq=definition+migrant
"Colonists" might suggest no existing (or none that 'count') existing inhabitants, but migrating doesn't even rule out that they've been there before, as sole or co-inhabitants, moved out again, moved back again...
Google searches are tailored to the individual, thus linking to a google search is not conducive to discussion because we may not be seeing the same thing. Do not rely on google to define your world view, or else whoever controls google, controls how you frame everything.

OED on settler
A person who settles in an area, typically one with no or few previous inhabitants.
dic.com on settler
A person who settles in a new country or area.
CED on settler
A person who arrives, especially from another country, in a new place in order to live there and use the land.
MWD on settler
A person who arrives, especially from another country, in a new place in order to live there and use the land.

OED on migrant
A person who moves from one place to another in order to find work or better living conditions.
dic.com on migrant
Also called migrant worker. a person who moves from place to place to get work, especially a farm laborer who harvests crops seasonally.
CED on migrant
A person that travels to a different country or place, often in order to find work.
MWD on migrant
A person who goes from one place to another especially to find work.

OED on immigrant
A person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.
dic.com on immigrant
A person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence.
CED on immigrant
A person who has come to a different country in order to live there permanently.
MWD on immigrant
A person who comes to a country to live there.

Flying Dice

  • Bay Watcher
  • Not having personal text in currentyear
    • View Profile
    • Realtalk for a second
Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #311 on: July 07, 2016, 06:52:10 pm »

LW, the U.S. did have very substantial immigrant populations. However, they arrived in clusters spread throughout our history, rather than all at once in a handful of decades, which is my impression of what happened when the Empire came home for you folks.

What that meant was that each group (Germans, Poles, Irish, Chinese, &c. &c.) was both fairly isolated and small compared to our total population, and specifically intending to integrate socially and culturally--people came to the U.S. for reasons beyond what I think is behind a lot of the immigration to yuroland. It wasn't all "land of milk and honey" bullshit, but also a genuine opportunity for advancement through self-driven effort and involvement in democratic governance. Immigrant populations generally ghettoized and were discriminated against initially in almost all cases, but likewise tended to have fully integrated into the American cultural and social identity within two or three generations (if that); moreover, the American identity didn't conflict with the cultural identity of your parents.

The latin@ immigration crisis is essentially just an amplification of the same tensions that arose with every new wave of immigration, but it's worse largely because of NAFTA. NAFTA allowed Mexican small-farmers to be driven out of business, which is by and large the primary impetus for immigration, while also helping (alongside other efforts toward globalization) to kill American industrial centers, resulting in an influx of immigrants at the same time that large numbers of working people lost their jobs. Without NAFTA there wouldn't have been a boom of Mexican immigration, and there wouldn't have been nearly as much backlash against immigrants from the rest of Latin America.

That's the principle set of differences between the U.S. and U.K. re: immigration. Our immigrants were spread across a much larger span of time and were a smaller proportion of the population. As you noted, they also explicitly desired to identify with their new home, but without the self-hating weirdness on the side of native-born citizens.

(We'd give Texas and the Texans back if not for all the oil.)

Hence, you have the U.S. as a massive blending of dozens of distinct cultures while still remaining inherently American, largely because the American culture is ideological rather than ethnic. The American nation is one of collective values rather than race.

--

As an aside, that's also why our greatest social problems have stemmed from the divide between black and white Americans back in the first century or so of existence, everything trickling down from there: African slaves weren't willing immigrants and didn't have the opportunity to culturally integrate until well after a distinct African-American culture had formed. The forcible cultural segregation, which lasted past the death of Jim Crow laws, has become self-perpetuating at this point. It's why there's not really a right answer to the racial tensions in the U.S., and why racism in the U.S. is such a different beast when contrasted with the yurogressive perspective on racism.

--

As you noted, Britain doesn't really have any "empty" spaces for immigrants to diffuse into, nor even enough cities, really. That was another factor in immigration on this side of the pond, immigrants generally arrived at one coast and scattered all the way to the other, with plenty of space in between, so you really only saw ghettoization in places like New York and San Fran. With no real room for major population growth and few cities, it's no wonder that people end up stepping off the boat in London and not having anywhere to go. Or that self-hating regressives love it so much that they want the city to just float the fuck away and become Vatican City II: Enrichment Boogaloo in the yurozone. Britons outside London (or England, for that matter) don't really seem to want to integrate immigrants into their communities, while Britons in major immigrant centers want to try to destroy the identity of new immigrants as Britons before it even fully forms.

Y'all's shit be fucked.
Logged

Cake
Aurora on small monitors:
1. Game Parameters -> Reduced Height Windows.
2. Lock taskbar to the right side of your desktop.
3. Run Resize Enable

RedKing

  • Bay Watcher
  • hoo hoo motherfucker
    • View Profile
Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #312 on: July 07, 2016, 06:56:22 pm »

So LW, the takeaway I get from your discussion of the sads of British multiculturalism is basically, "Britain was much better before I got here."  ???

Has too many echoes of people who romanticize and lionize the antebellum South...when men were men, women were women, and darkies were expendable farm tools.
Logged

Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
Quote from: Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.

mainiac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Na vazeal kwah-kai
    • View Profile
Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #313 on: July 07, 2016, 06:58:13 pm »

Lel no man, darkies were very expensive farm tools.
Logged
Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
--------------
[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Starver

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #314 on: July 07, 2016, 07:09:12 pm »

Google searches are tailored to the individual, thus linking to a google search is not conducive to discussion because we may not be seeing the same thing. Do not rely on google to define your world view, or else whoever controls google, controls how you frame everything.
If I had quoted the OED (or dictionary.com or MW) you could have said I was picking and choosing. I was giving you the opportunity to see the whole set, at the risk of your browser being given a bias that mine did not have (or maybe I had a different one).


But my apologies for trying to be helpful. I shall go back to reading what you say (as always) but resisting the temptation to reply even when I apparently agree with you.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 07:12:50 pm by Starver »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 19 20 [21] 22 23 ... 125