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Author Topic: Brexit! Conversation Continued  (Read 84550 times)

Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #315 on: July 07, 2016, 05:55:10 pm »

Migrants by definition are not moving to an area with few previous inhabitants, but are moving to a foreign existing country to become a permanent resident

Nope.  Nothing in the definition mentions existing inhabitants (e: or indeed countries, foreign or otherwise).

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=definition+migrant&oq=definition+migrant

"Colonists" might suggest no existing (or none that 'count') existing inhabitants, but migrating doesn't even rule out that they've been there before, as sole or co-inhabitants, moved out again, moved back again, impermanently...

E2: Yes, just checked, and "immigrant" is probably the word you want (implies a country to "im-" into, also permanence), or in the opposite context "emigrant" ("em-"ing out of a given country, suggesting towards here). But while the lazy umbrella term covers both, it covers many other circumstances too.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 06:05:54 pm by Starver »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #316 on: July 07, 2016, 06:11:10 pm »

Nope.  Nothing in the definition mentions existing inhabitants.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=definition+migrant&oq=definition+migrant
"Colonists" might suggest no existing (or none that 'count') existing inhabitants, but migrating doesn't even rule out that they've been there before, as sole or co-inhabitants, moved out again, moved back again...
Google searches are tailored to the individual, thus linking to a google search is not conducive to discussion because we may not be seeing the same thing. Do not rely on google to define your world view, or else whoever controls google, controls how you frame everything.

OED on settler
A person who settles in an area, typically one with no or few previous inhabitants.
dic.com on settler
A person who settles in a new country or area.
CED on settler
A person who arrives, especially from another country, in a new place in order to live there and use the land.
MWD on settler
A person who arrives, especially from another country, in a new place in order to live there and use the land.

OED on migrant
A person who moves from one place to another in order to find work or better living conditions.
dic.com on migrant
Also called migrant worker. a person who moves from place to place to get work, especially a farm laborer who harvests crops seasonally.
CED on migrant
A person that travels to a different country or place, often in order to find work.
MWD on migrant
A person who goes from one place to another especially to find work.

OED on immigrant
A person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.
dic.com on immigrant
A person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence.
CED on immigrant
A person who has come to a different country in order to live there permanently.
MWD on immigrant
A person who comes to a country to live there.

Flying Dice

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #317 on: July 07, 2016, 06:52:10 pm »

LW, the U.S. did have very substantial immigrant populations. However, they arrived in clusters spread throughout our history, rather than all at once in a handful of decades, which is my impression of what happened when the Empire came home for you folks.

What that meant was that each group (Germans, Poles, Irish, Chinese, &c. &c.) was both fairly isolated and small compared to our total population, and specifically intending to integrate socially and culturally--people came to the U.S. for reasons beyond what I think is behind a lot of the immigration to yuroland. It wasn't all "land of milk and honey" bullshit, but also a genuine opportunity for advancement through self-driven effort and involvement in democratic governance. Immigrant populations generally ghettoized and were discriminated against initially in almost all cases, but likewise tended to have fully integrated into the American cultural and social identity within two or three generations (if that); moreover, the American identity didn't conflict with the cultural identity of your parents.

The latin@ immigration crisis is essentially just an amplification of the same tensions that arose with every new wave of immigration, but it's worse largely because of NAFTA. NAFTA allowed Mexican small-farmers to be driven out of business, which is by and large the primary impetus for immigration, while also helping (alongside other efforts toward globalization) to kill American industrial centers, resulting in an influx of immigrants at the same time that large numbers of working people lost their jobs. Without NAFTA there wouldn't have been a boom of Mexican immigration, and there wouldn't have been nearly as much backlash against immigrants from the rest of Latin America.

That's the principle set of differences between the U.S. and U.K. re: immigration. Our immigrants were spread across a much larger span of time and were a smaller proportion of the population. As you noted, they also explicitly desired to identify with their new home, but without the self-hating weirdness on the side of native-born citizens.

(We'd give Texas and the Texans back if not for all the oil.)

Hence, you have the U.S. as a massive blending of dozens of distinct cultures while still remaining inherently American, largely because the American culture is ideological rather than ethnic. The American nation is one of collective values rather than race.

--

As an aside, that's also why our greatest social problems have stemmed from the divide between black and white Americans back in the first century or so of existence, everything trickling down from there: African slaves weren't willing immigrants and didn't have the opportunity to culturally integrate until well after a distinct African-American culture had formed. The forcible cultural segregation, which lasted past the death of Jim Crow laws, has become self-perpetuating at this point. It's why there's not really a right answer to the racial tensions in the U.S., and why racism in the U.S. is such a different beast when contrasted with the yurogressive perspective on racism.

--

As you noted, Britain doesn't really have any "empty" spaces for immigrants to diffuse into, nor even enough cities, really. That was another factor in immigration on this side of the pond, immigrants generally arrived at one coast and scattered all the way to the other, with plenty of space in between, so you really only saw ghettoization in places like New York and San Fran. With no real room for major population growth and few cities, it's no wonder that people end up stepping off the boat in London and not having anywhere to go. Or that self-hating regressives love it so much that they want the city to just float the fuck away and become Vatican City II: Enrichment Boogaloo in the yurozone. Britons outside London (or England, for that matter) don't really seem to want to integrate immigrants into their communities, while Britons in major immigrant centers want to try to destroy the identity of new immigrants as Britons before it even fully forms.

Y'all's shit be fucked.
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RedKing

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #318 on: July 07, 2016, 06:56:22 pm »

So LW, the takeaway I get from your discussion of the sads of British multiculturalism is basically, "Britain was much better before I got here."  ???

Has too many echoes of people who romanticize and lionize the antebellum South...when men were men, women were women, and darkies were expendable farm tools.
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mainiac

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #319 on: July 07, 2016, 06:58:13 pm »

Lel no man, darkies were very expensive farm tools.
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Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #320 on: July 07, 2016, 07:09:12 pm »

Google searches are tailored to the individual, thus linking to a google search is not conducive to discussion because we may not be seeing the same thing. Do not rely on google to define your world view, or else whoever controls google, controls how you frame everything.
If I had quoted the OED (or dictionary.com or MW) you could have said I was picking and choosing. I was giving you the opportunity to see the whole set, at the risk of your browser being given a bias that mine did not have (or maybe I had a different one).


But my apologies for trying to be helpful. I shall go back to reading what you say (as always) but resisting the temptation to reply even when I apparently agree with you.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 07:12:50 pm by Starver »
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Urist Reborn

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #321 on: July 07, 2016, 07:13:17 pm »

I dunno, I feel like I am the one doing something wrong here. >_< and it isn't nice to kind of say that about people. Then again my temper has subsided so I don't feel so ranty.
You actually seem really polite when angry
But you think Canadians don't have a culture?...

Sorry, carry on.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #322 on: July 07, 2016, 07:23:22 pm »

@FD That deserves a full reply later FD but I'm well sleepy, but by god FD I feel retarded for not taking into account African American ancestors not having a choice in whether they lived in the land of freedom
That's gotta leave generational scars

So LW, the takeaway I get from your discussion of the sads of British multiculturalism is basically, "Britain was much better before I got here."  ???
Nope lol (well it was getting worse, but I promise I probably wasn't to blame), I talk more about the civic side of things in Europol thread about the impact of mass migration and gentrification on London, but ITT it's not too relevant on this derail, so I suppose it gives the impression of muh good dark age. I cherish Britain, Britons and I genuinely find it a source of amusement that even our most fringe jihadi will proudly call themselves Al-Britani, cos it means even our most extreme elements of society have integrated well. They are dysfunctional, yes, but the dysfunctional society was manifested by those who describe themselves peculiarly.
The takehome would be its kinda shit that this was all done by Politicians who saw multiculturalism, mass migration and diversity as innate goods to be sought with no plan or even objective beyond the policy itself as an inherent good - not even consulting their electorate, or addressing their concerns, acting like villainous snobs holding their electorate in contempt at the obvious truth that migration is good because migration is good. And at the end of the day, that doesn't even matter much anymore. Multiculturalism failed and we moved on, everyone is integrating, but we're still dealing with the permanent consequences - one of which immediately coming to mind is there are now two British identities in Britain, both deserving of their place imo, of which I want to preserve both, seeking them not to replace each other as happened in London. I think over time a lot more of my ideological attention has focused on trying to get reconciling and often conflicting groups in Briton to not destroy each other through existence or action, like why I support Theresa May's effort to reconcile Remain and Leave even if it risks concessions to the European Union. Given how inimical I have also become towards the EU's existence, that should speak for itself lel
Oh yeah, something about controlling immigration, I think I forgot to make that point. Just control mind you, I think migration volume is something you have to decide on a situational basis

But you think Canadians don't have a culture?...

Sorry, carry on.
OH GOD
It's true! XD

I'd apologize but I don't want to culturally appropriate Canada

If I had quoted the OED (or dictionary.com or MW) you could have said I was picking and choosing. I was giving you the opportunity to see the whole set, at the risk of your browser being given a bias that mine did not have (or maybe I had a different one).
Nah fam wouldn't have said that, no one wins in semantics, it's a cooperative effort to finding out what the hell we all mean ;D
Really I don't buy the latter bit though, basically the same as linking lmgtfy

At worst, the CED suggests a 'country' destination (suggesting prior occupants), but diluted greatly by the ambiguous "or place" (different part of the origin territory? Unclaimed land?) so I don't think you've negated my point to you. If that was your intention.
Yeah immigrant seems to be the more accurate term I was looking for, migrant seems to be the more neutral one that just refers to one who does the act of moving from a place to another for work reasons, or as the OED defines it, work or better living conditions

But my apologies for trying to be helpful. I shall go back to reading what you say (as always) but resisting the temptation to reply even when I apparently agree with you.
I don't get this m9

Sonlirain

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #323 on: July 07, 2016, 08:29:21 pm »

That's what you get for too much tolerance i guess.
Look at Poland it's as intolerant as you can get. In fact despite being right next to germany the immigrants give it a wide berth and despite the mass immigration the muslim population there is at 35k and shrinking.
People in general got triggered by the recent terrorist attacks and attitudes towards muslims dropped accordingly.
So far there was no terrorist attacks in Poland (Last one was a bomb exploding in a train station killing 30 people or so... back in 1939) but i have a feeling that if one happens the barely contained hatred will spill and turn into lynch mobs out to get anyone vaguely muslim.

And of course there are tensions between "our" muslims that lived in Poland for generations and the immigrant variety.

Quote from: Wikipedia
There's an ongoing conflict between Polish native Sunni Muslim Lipka Tatars, who have a unique approach towards Islam and have been living in Poland for 600 years, and an increasingly vocal group of mainly foreign-born and foreign-sponsored, but also native-born convert, group of Sunni Muslims who adhere to Wahhabi movement. The conflict divides country's Sunni Muslims and causes bureaucratic confusion, as both sides lay claim to representation of country's Sunni Muslims. The "native born" Sunni Muslims (Lipka Tatars), run Muzułmański Związek Religijny w Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej (Muslim Religious Union in the Polish Republic), and "foreign born" Sunni Muslims run Liga Muzułmańska w Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej (Muslim League in the Polish Republic). The latter is mainly based upon foreigners living in the coutry, such as Arabs, Pakistanis, Chechens etc. Liga Muzułmańska is also a branch of a worldwide Muslim Brotherhood organization

So yeah... they just had to start shit because the Lipkas were not hardcore enough for them. I wouldn't be surprised if they consider Lipkas "Kufr" and secretly already marked them all for death.
Thankfully it didn't get violent... yet. Mainly because Poland is becoming more and more Orwellian and starting shit means you go wherever you came from.
Quote
The new law gives the state security service the right to conduct surveillance of foreign citizens for up to three months without prior court approval.
It allows for suspects to be held for 14 days without charges but with court approval, expanding the current period of 48 hours a suspect can be held without charges.
The regulation also makes it easier for foreigners to be deported if considered a threat, and regulates the sale and usage of pay-as-you-go SIM cards, which are now sold freely and anonymously.
Critics say the legislation gives the secret services excessive powers, and see the move as part of the ruling party's efforts to strengthen its grip on key institutions.
Rights group Amnesty International described the bill as dangerous, saying it gives "seemingly unlimited powers" to Poland's intelligence services.

And of course what other country in the EU would pull off crap like this?

Quote from: Wikipedia
In May, 2016, shortly before the World Youth Day 2016, police in Kraków asked foreigners, mainly among the Muslim community, in the city if they "know any terrorists?"
I'm quite sure Poland truly is the gemstone in the crown of anti liberal thinking.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 08:33:34 pm by Sonlirain »
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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #324 on: July 07, 2016, 09:26:11 pm »

Is "Pakistani-Brit" or "Polish-Brit" a thing?

I mean shit, if you moved over here, LW, and spawned in whatever fashion you people do (it's ok to say that, you can't be racist against Brits!) you might find them being called British-Americans, maybe ElDub-Americans... Bant-Americans, you get the idea.

I do love that you people ran around the world dispensing british culture left and right at the end of a sword or gun, and then complain when other people ask if they can take their culture and come crash on your couch.


Oh, if we had to give back Texas, I'm pretty sure they'd want California and Nevada too... we could probably keep Arizona, I doubt they would want it, but at least a large chunk of Texas is fit for human habitation without spending vast amounts of money, effort, and throwing water at the sand while screaming "GROW!" over and over again.
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Neonivek

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #325 on: July 07, 2016, 09:34:44 pm »

Quote
I do love that you people ran around the world dispensing british culture left and right at the end of a sword or gun, and then complain when other people ask if they can take their culture and come crash on your couch.

No it makes perfect sense. The British believes their culture was the absolute best... So much so that they had a sworn duty to not only share it with the world but also morally required to force it upon lesser cultures through any means necessary.

Why would such a culture that believes in that ever want to intermingle with other cultures?

Just look at some of their more segregated colonies where they basically instituted a aristocracy of rich British people, keeping out the natives for years (often even today still having the gap between the two)

If one were facetious or misanthropic we could just say that their issues with multiculturalism is just holdovers from their imperial days. Wanting to keep other cultures at bay while at the same time exploiting them for their own gain.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2016, 09:36:49 pm by Neonivek »
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Starver

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #326 on: July 07, 2016, 10:09:54 pm »

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mainiac

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #327 on: July 07, 2016, 10:34:54 pm »

...but now we've got the recipe...

He has a point.  I was talking with two other white people today about how we could totally open an indian restaurant.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Flying Dice

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #328 on: July 07, 2016, 10:47:21 pm »

I mean, British-Japanese-Korean curry (it disseminated in that pattern) is its own branch of the food. Only a familial relation to the curries made in other parts of the world, in the same way that Italian "pizza" or Chicago deep-dish might be tangentially related to the creation of immigrants living in NYC, and vaguely resembles it in some regards, but are functionally different foods which happens to hit some similar notes.
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Sheb

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Re: Brexit! Conversation Continued
« Reply #329 on: July 08, 2016, 03:58:57 am »

LW, I just wanted to chime in re: multiculturalism. You say that "Saying multiculturalism has failed means just that", but in my experience, multiculturalism is a very ill-defined term, whose exact meaning vary from place to place, from "Letting anyone not of my culture/race in" (I know you didn't mention race, but some people do use that way), to a bunch of other stuff. In the French context, "multiculturalism" usually refers to what is seen as the "Anglo-saxon" approach of letting various communities segregate and live side-by-side rather than going for a more melting pot approach for exemple. I think Merkel meant something like that too when she used the term.

So yeah, multiculturalism isn't clearly defined, its meaning change from country to country and you should take any statement using it with a layer of interpretation.
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