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[Sheb]

No, just sheer economic power. A lot of those exceptions are about things designed to profit France or Germany, but the UK was big enough to go lol no about.

Uh, not really, stuff like opt-out on immigration have nothing to do with economics. And powerhouses like Denmark also got them. It's mostly that the UK has been historically less euro-enthusiast than other countries, and in the sausage-making of treaty crafting other countries often found it easier to give the UK an exemption and move forward.

[scriver]

The size of your economy has everything to do with how much influence you have in the great eco-dick measuring contest which is the EU, and how much influence you have decides how much you can get away with.

[Helgoland]

And powerhouses like Denmark also got them.

[Necrothurge]

I was gonna vote Labour but my constituency is completely Labour. They've voted Labour for decades now. I just don't see any point in wasting an hour or more of my time to go and vote especially when I work. Everyone else will vote Labour anyway.

[Frumple]

... and that, ladies and gents, is (one of the ways) how your preferred political party loses an election

[Necrothurge]

... and that, ladies and gents, is (one of the ways) how your preferred political party loses an election

Like I say, my constituency is 100% predicted win for Labour. No point in voting, really.

I made a snap election thread: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164378.msg7472758#msg7472758

[Starver]

I thought Labor and Corbyn were against Brexit? I think I read somewhere that he is in favor of giving the Falklands back to Argentina, so, I don't know.

Labour was split Remain/Leave, just like the Conservatives were split during the Referendum, more than once the Referendum was referred to as the Cameron/Osbourne vs Johnson/Gove Conservative Leadership Campaign Open To All Voters Of All Party Allegiances And None.

Corbyn, himself, was nominally Remain, "7 out of 10 swayed towards Europe", but was criticised for not actually putting his weight into convincing people of that.  Meanwhile, May was Remain-but-mostly-absent.

Anyway, Labour now has the problem of having to garner support from its old/potential supporters who were Leavers (who may have voted UKIP, and are now tempted to vote for President May because they like the cut of her gibb) and old/potential supporters who are still Remain-inclined, and would probably wander in the direction of the LibDems if that gave the message (that voting Labour wouldn't, whatever else they think about Corbyn) that No Exit is still their preference.

The Tories have a degree of Remain haemorhraging to deal with, but are simultaneously likely being infused by UKIP voters, if that party doesn't stop its own bleedout, like it didn't for the Local Elections.

[Sheb]

The size of your economy has everything to do with how much influence you have in the great eco-dick measuring contest which is the EU, and how much influence you have decides how much you can get away with.

Lisbon changed it a tiny bit, but historically almost all decisions needed to be taken by consensus. If a country really doesn't want something, it won't happen, or they'll get an opt-out. Of course, other countries are going to try to negotiate to move things forward ("Well, if you don't want to back our migration rules, we'll not cooperate on justice with you...") but that's it. Economics got much less influence than you seems to think it has, political will has. Look at how Sweden punched way above its economic wiehgt when Carl Bilt was FM for exemple.

[scriver]

And powerhouses like Denmark also got them.

All countries have exceptions. The UK has the most because it is one of the most powerful members.

The size of your economy has everything to do with how much influence you have in the great eco-dick measuring contest which is the EU, and how much influence you have decides how much you can get away with.

Lisbon changed it a tiny bit, but historically almost all decisions needed to be taken by consensus. If a country really doesn't want something, it won't happen, or they'll get an opt-out. Of course, other countries are going to try to negotiate to move things forward ("Well, if you don't want to back our migration rules, we'll not cooperate on justice with you...") but that's it. Economics got much less influence than you seems to think it has, political will has. Look at how Sweden punched way above its economic wiehgt when Carl Bilt was FM for exemple.

It's nice that you followed up your argument with pointing out why just flat out refusing isn't possible in reality. You have to negotiate, and the leverage you have to negotiate with depends on the size of your economy.

Also Carl Bildt is a sociopath responsible for genocide in Ethiopia.

[Sheb]

Uh? What (Re: Carl Bilt)? I mean, I genuinely considered printing carl bilt t-shirt to give to my dad as bday present at some point so that's kind of a surprising thing to hear.

I'm also not sure all countries have exception. Not aware of any significant one for Belgium for exemple. It seems to be more correlated with euroscepticism and date of membership than anything. Which is why Danemark got so many, from the Euro to defense to migration. Although you could make the argument that Danemark wouldn't have gotten so many if it couldn't ride on the UK's coattail. Not sure if that's how it worked out at the negotiations, it'd be nice to know.

But the dirty truth is that a lot of the time, when national politicians tells you the EU forced them to do something, it just means they don't want to take the fallout but actually didn't disagree much with the proposal. When they are determined, even small countries can get their way (Look at how Greece took the entire enlargement of 2004 hostage to get the EU to accept a split Cyprus as a member).

[scriver]

Yeah it's almost as if politicians have a different agenda in the EU regardless of what their people think and that the EU works against people's ability to democratically self-determinate.

And yes Carl Bildt  was director or board member of what I recall as being an oil or mining company at the time it's been gleefully murdering locals in Ethiopia region.

[Frumple]

Little checking (momentary curiosity is a hell of a thing when you have internet) suggests he was actually off the board (oct. 2006) before the company in question (Lundin Petroleum) set to work in Ethiopia (Nov '06). Does seem some sketchy stuff scattered around with the guy, and the company may have done some shitty stuff earlier, but that particular issue is one it doesn't look like he had much (or any, considering the nature of what being a board member involves) interaction with. Other stuff of questionable nature you might could peg the guy with, though.

[Starver]

All countries have exceptions. The UK has the most because it is one of the most powerful members.

...and now they're all thrown away.  (Or will be. And slim chance of ever regaining. If we leave and then rejoin, we won't be able to resist the change to the Euro, which'll annoy a certain party with the "£" symbol in their logo...)

[Helgoland]

Yeah it's almost as if politicians have a different agenda in the EU regardless of what their people think and that the EU works against people's ability to democratically self-determinate.

When folks are gullible or willfully uninformed enough for that trick to work, they deserve to be duped, really. It's not like there's some secret mystic wisdom being kept away from The People (tm) here.

[scriver]

Yeah it's almost as if politicians have a different agenda in the EU regardless of what their people think and that the EU works against people's ability to democratically self-determinate.

When folks are gullible or willfully uninformed enough for that trick to work, they deserve to be duped, really. It's not like there's some secret mystic wisdom being kept away from The People (tm) here.

Yeah there's definitely no deliberate obfuscation going on in the EU, that's why opacity is a cornerstone - oh wait it isn't.